NBA Thread

[rico]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Kobe was great for sure but I don’t place home top 5. He was knocked out by Nash’s Suns and couldn’t win after Shaq until they brought in a then star level Gasol. His competitiveness and killer instinct is right there with MJ, but I don’t put him at the same level as MJ, LBJ, or Magic. Top 10 or so for me, which has to include Duncan, maybe the best power forward ever. Bird for me is somewhere around top 5.

Kareem and Bill Russell have to be in the mix 

I really don't know about Kareem and Russell.  Both had a lot of talent around them.  Magic had the talent around him as well.  No, it is a two horse race.  James or Jordan?

[PoHoosier]

I was wondering when Bird would join the conversation.  You know he belongs on the list when MJ and Magic both have him in their top 5.

[rico]

1 minute ago, PoHoosier said:

I was wondering when Bird would join the conversation.  You know he belongs on the list when MJ and Magic both have him in their top 5.

I love Larry, but how many HoFers were on his teams?

[ADegenerate]

2 minutes ago, PoHoosier said:

I was wondering when Bird would join the conversation.  You know he belongs on the list when MJ and Magic both have him in their top 5.

I’ve got him over Kobe personally.

[PoHoosier]

2 minutes ago, rico said:

I love Larry, but how many HoFers were on his teams?

No doubt he had talent around him.  He did make those HoFers much better.  I am going to defer to Magic when he says " The one guy I feared was Larry Bird.  I lost sleep at night.."

Edited May 26, 2018 by PoHoosier

[rico]

1 minute ago, PoHoosier said:

No doubt he had talent around him.

Yes he did....and lots of it.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, rico said:

Yes he did....and lots of it.  

And Bird later admitted Magic was better. That was a great two - battle though 

[rico]

7 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

And Bird later admitted Magic was better. That was a great two - battle though 

Yes it was......put the NBA on the map.

[ADegenerate]

1 minute ago, rico said:

Yes it was......put the NBA on the map.

I caught the tail end of magic + bird era, an injured bird for me too being born in 84. Bird have him beat if not for the back or still magic? @Hoosierhoopster

[rico]

1 minute ago, ADegenerate said:

I caught the tail end of magic + bird era, an injured bird for me too being born in 84. Bird have him beat if not for the back or still magic? @Hoosierhoopster

The Bird Celtics were around his age if not older(Parrish).  Bird's back had nothing to do with it.  The Lakers were a better franchise back then.

[ADegenerate]

4 minutes ago, rico said:

The Bird Celtics were around his age if not older(Parrish).  Bird's back had nothing to do with it.  The Lakers were a better franchise back then.

I meant more of in a top 5 who’s better if bird didn’t have a bad back. I’ve got magic over him but was curious if the back would have changed that.

[rico]

2 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

I meant more of in a top 5 who’s better if bird didn’t have a bad back. I’ve got magic over him but was curious if the back would have changed that.

I wouldn't put Magic over Bird.  Bird was older and Magic came out after 2 years at MSU.  

[Seeking6]

I think it's great for discussion and that's what most of us like to do. The one thing I've never understood is that somehow the Lebron crowd almost is feeling slighted as the 2nd greatest ever (if you think he is). 

I'm a Lebron fan. I think he's a freak. And I definitely think he belongs in that top 3-4 conversation...he and Kobe are probably neck and neck with Lebron having the edge. To me though best ever is Jordan. Stats, titles, defensive player aside, changed the league, changed the networks..he was carrying the torch that Bird/Magic started and took to another level.......just something about Jordan. His will, determination, mental toughness.....Lebron has all those too. I just think Jordan has a little more.

I feel bad that people can't just appreciate greatness. It's almost like debating Willie Mays vs Mickey Mantle. Or Tom Brady vs Joe Montana. Or Jack vs Arnie and the list goes on..

[IU Scott]

3 hours ago, ADegenerate said:

@KoB2011 @FW_Hoosier @Hoosierhoopster

I also watched Jordan live a few times and saw both. Lebron is already the goat for me. Is it kind of impossible to debate? Maybe/kinda. For me Lebron is the best. I feel like people aged 30-40 are the ‘best judges’ because they grew up as Jordan kids and have seen the league in both eras. 

People want to talk about 6-0. How about 6-7 in elimination games. ‘Take that for data!’

The last two years has changed my mind about Lebron for me because before I did not have him in the top 5.  Today I have  him and Jordan as 1a and 1b and what he has done this year is remarkable.  I have watched many of the top players in person except for Jordan.  I was able to watch Kareem and Magic as well as Bird and Dr. J and seeing Lebron in person really changed my view of him.

[IU Scott]

4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Kobe was great for sure but I don’t place home top 5. He was knocked out by Nash’s Suns and couldn’t win after Shaq until they brought in a then star level Gasol. His competitiveness and killer instinct is right there with MJ, but I don’t put him at the same level as MJ, LBJ, or Magic. Top 10 or so for me, which has to include Duncan, maybe the best power forward ever. Bird for me is somewhere around top 5.

Kareem and Bill Russell have to be in the mix 

My top 10 would be

1a) Jordan

1b) Lebron

3) Magic

4) Bird

5) Kareem

6) Russell

7) Wilt

8- Oscar

9) Duncan

10) Hakeem

I am doing this off the top of my head so I am probably leaving some one obvious off but I think it is pretty close.  To me the next tier would be Kobe, Karl Malone, Stockton, Iverson.

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by IU Scott

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, rico said:

The Bird Celtics were around his age if not older(Parrish).  Bird's back had nothing to do with it.  The Lakers were a better franchise back then.

Bird's back problem started around 91 season and it shortened  his career.  I hated Bird and the Celtics but they were such a great team and respected how hard they played.  The best of 5 series against the Pacers in the early 90's where Bird went out after slamming his head on the floor and came back in to lead the to the series win was a great feat for Bird.  As a Pacers fan I hated it but had to admire his guts for coming back like that.

[ADegenerate]

4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

My top 10 would be

1a) Jordan

2b) Lebron

3) Magic

4) Bird

5) Kareem

6) Russell

7) Wilt

8- Oscar

9) Duncan

10) Hakeem

I am doing this off the top of my head so I am probably leaving some one obvious off but I think it is pretty close.  To me the next tier would be Kobe, Karl Malone, Stockton, Iverson.

 

I’m so confused. We’re in 100% agreement for the first time ever! I like the 1a - 1b shout. That’s very fair.

It’s no surprise at all to me that Hoosier fans give Lebron the fair credit and respect he deserves. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

25 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

My top 10 would be

1a) Jordan

2b) Lebron

3) Magic

4) Bird

5) Kareem

6) Russell

7) Wilt

8- Oscar

9) Duncan

10) Hakeem

I am doing this off the top of my head so I am probably leaving some one obvious off but I think it is pretty close.  To me the next tier would be Kobe, Karl Malone, Stockton, Iverson.

 

This list is as good as any, imo.

i would probably have IT in at 10 or 11. Hakeem was amazing, completely owned Shaq in the run when Shaq was still young, but he did fall off hard and fast. Pound for pound to me IT is right there

[IU Scott]

43 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

This list is as good as any, imo.

i would probably have IT in at 10 or 11. Hakeem was amazing, completely owned Shaq in the run when Shaq was still young, but he did fall off hard and fast. Pound for pound to me IT is right there

What a terrible IU fan I am because the one guy I forgot on my list was from IU in IT

[KoB2011]

3 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

I think it's great for discussion and that's what most of us like to do. The one thing I've never understood is that somehow the Lebron crowd almost is feeling slighted as the 2nd greatest ever (if you think he is). 

I'm a Lebron fan. I think he's a freak. And I definitely think he belongs in that top 3-4 conversation...he and Kobe are probably neck and neck with Lebron having the edge. To me though best ever is Jordan. Stats, titles, defensive player aside, changed the league, changed the networks..he was carrying the torch that Bird/Magic started and took to another level.......just something about Jordan. His will, determination, mental toughness.....Lebron has all those too. I just think Jordan has a little more.

I feel bad that people can't just appreciate greatness. It's almost like debating Willie Mays vs Mickey Mantle. Or Tom Brady vs Joe Montana. Or Jack vs Arnie and the list goes on..

I am certainly not a LBJ fan, but when people say things like he is "only" top 3-4 and MJ has a clear statistical edge I think you're going to get a reaction. 

Frankly, if we are talking only of statistics there is no debate with MJ and LBJ. There's literally nothing you can point to in Jordan's favor. Now there are of course intangibles you mentioned, and those are subjective but I think LeBron holds his own there too. 

[ADegenerate]

4 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

I think it's great for discussion and that's what most of us like to do. The one thing I've never understood is that somehow the Lebron crowd almost is feeling slighted as the 2nd greatest ever (if you think he is). 

I'm a Lebron fan. I think he's a freak. And I definitely think he belongs in that top 3-4 conversation...he and Kobe are probably neck and neck with Lebron having the edge. To me though best ever is Jordan. Stats, titles, defensive player aside, changed the league, changed the networks..he was carrying the torch that Bird/Magic started and took to another level.......just something about Jordan. His will, determination, mental toughness.....Lebron has all those too. I just think Jordan has a little more.

I feel bad that people can't just appreciate greatness. It's almost like debating Willie Mays vs Mickey Mantle. Or Tom Brady vs Joe Montana. Or Jack vs Arnie and the list goes on..

I think Lebron people get defensive because we’ve been putting up with bs fake news from the talking heads for about a decade now. The arrogance that comes out of some of these so called experts mouth when the debate comes up used to really make my blood boil. He wasn’t even halfway into his career and a few finals losses ended the debate in some pundits mind. You had that fake bullshit about Kobe being better than him and Kobe being clutch when in all actuality his numbers were terrible in crunch time (think it’s last two of the fourth?). You had that fake news about Lebron lacking the clutch gene. You had the nonsense about him not being a closer and him defering to Wade in late game situations. You had the nonsense about him being afraid to attack the rim because he’s afraid to shoot free throws in late game situations. 

You got the 6-0 argument thrown in your face when the teams Jordan beat don’t stack up to those warriors or spurs teams. They never talk about the four first round defeats or the fact that he has a losing record in close out games for Jordan. They ignore the fact that he had one of the greatest coaches in history, one of the best two way players in Pippen, one of the best defenders in history in Rodman, and extremely solid players in Kukoch, grant, Armstrong, etc. He had knockdown three point shooters in Kerr + Paxon too. You had that silliness about how tough the defense was back then and how the game isn’t the same. I could go on but I hunk that’s enough.

 

(What also doesn’t get brought up is that little hiatus Jordan took when we all suspect he had to take a nap because of the gambling. We don’t talk about that because he’s God Tier and to question Jordan is insanity.)

Edited May 26, 2018 by ADegenerate

[IU Scott]

28 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

I think Lebron people get defensive because we’ve been putting up with bs fake news from the talking heads for about a decade now. The arrogance that comes out of some of these so called experts mouth when the debate comes up used to really make my blood boil. He wasn’t even halfway into his career and a few finals losses ended the debate in some pundits mind. You had that fake bullshit about Kobe being better than him and Kobe being clutch when in all actuality his numbers were terrible in crunch time (think it’s last two of the fourth?). You had that fake news about Lebron lacking the clutch gene. You had the nonsense about him not being a closer and him defering to Wade in late game situations. You had the nonsense about him being afraid to attack the rim because he’s afraid to shoot free throws in late game situations. 

You got the 6-0 argument thrown in your face when the teams Jordan beat don’t stack up to those warriors or spurs teams. They never talk about the four first round defeats or the fact that he has a losing record in close out games for Jordan. They ignore the fact that he had one of the greatest coaches in history, one of the best two way players in Pippen, one of the best defenders in history in Rodman, and extremely solid players in Kukoch, grant, Armstrong, etc. He had knockdown three point shooters in Kerr + Paxon too. You had that silliness about how tough the defense was back then and how the game isn’t the same. I could go on but I hunk that’s enough.

 

(What also doesn’t get brought up is that little hiatus Jordan took when we all suspect he had to take a nap because of the gambling. We don’t talk about that because he’s God Tier and to question Jordan is insanity.)

The only argument I would have is that I think the teams that Jordan had to go through were better than the teams Lebron had to go through until he had to play the Warriors the last few years.  The eastern Conference was way better back in the 90's than it is today so the Bulls had a tougher route to get to the finals.

[KoB2011]

8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The only argument I would have is that I think the teams that Jordan had to go through were better than the teams Lebron had to go through until he had to play the Warriors the last few years.  The eastern Conference was way better back in the 90's than it is today so the Bulls had a tougher route to get to the finals.

I agree, the East was better but the teams Jordan faced in the Finals were warm garbage. I think every team LBJ has faced in the Finals would be favored over any team Jordan faced. 

And let's not act like there haven't been some great teams in the East in LBJ's career. The Celtics and Pacers have certainly had some championship caliber teams that couldn't get through LeBron. 

[KoB2011]

LBJ has led his team in points, assists and rebounds 62 times in the playoffs. The next closest is Duncan and Bird, who have both done it 21 times. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

37 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

LBJ has led his team in points, assists and rebounds 62 times in the playoffs. The next closest is Duncan and Bird, who have both done it 21 times. 

I’m not really a LeBron fan either, but what he’s done and is doing right now, closing in on his mid-30’s, is amazing. We’ve come to expect it, so we take it for granted, but no one else is playing on his level (including Durant who thinks he is)