2023 NFL Discussion

[BobSaccamanno]

2 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I brought this idea up several pages back…

He was having an excellent year with the Saints this season until he got hurt, with no better weapons than the Colts currently have. I believe he could be signed for a one year contract at about $7 million. He’d be highly motivated as he would be playing for a fat, long-term contract.

To me, this would be a low risk/high reward proposition for the Colts. If he plays well, they very well have found their long term answer at quarterback. If not, they spent very little and have no commitment beyond next year 

I think they have something in mind since they are so open about moving on.  Maybe this is it.  But, will Dennis Allen just try to get him back in NO?  Jimmy G is out there but that would be a confounding move.

[BobSaccamanno]

3 hours ago, IU Scott said:

He was average, but can't see how they bring him back.  With all of this coming out I just don't see how he would be able to play here..

I just think Irsay doesn't like Wentz and wasn't really thrilled getting home in the first place.  I still think some of it was that he wasn't vaccinated and at the end of the year he got covid.

Something is more than meets the eye.  I don't have his stats open but I seem to recall that he threw 27 TDs and 7 INTs or thereabouts at 65% completion rate.  He hardly was so bad that the front office is acting like he is toxic.  It has only been one year, and he didn't have much explosiveness to work with on the boundary.  Then, you add the Frank Reich connection.  The Jax game was a cluster but that was on everybody.  I get that he turned it over, but where was the rest of the team too.  The way they seem to be dropping him like a hot potato suggests something odd is going on behind the scenes.  If it is the owner, he should know better than to interfere.  Yes, it's his team by inheritance but when owners meddle with the football guys, it is not good.

[IU Scott]

11 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Something is more than meets the eye.  I don't have his stats open but I seem to recall that he threw 27 TDs and 7 INTs or thereabouts at 65% completion rate.  He hardly was so bad that the front office is acting like he is toxic.  It has only been one year, and he didn't have much explosiveness to work with on the boundary.  Then, you add the Frank Reich connection.  The Jax game was a cluster but that was on everybody.  I get that he turned it over, but where was the rest of the team too.  The way they seem to be dropping him like a hot potato suggests something odd is going on behind the scenes.  If it is the owner, he should know better than to interfere.  Yes, it's his team by inheritance but when owners meddle with the football guys, it is not good.

The last 5 or 6;games wasn't very good.  Against NE he had 57 yards passing

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

The last 5 or 6;games wasn't very good.  Against NE he had 57 yards passing

He threw 12 passes in that game. 

[IU Scott]

37 minutes ago, btownqb said:

He threw 12 passes in that game. 

Also had two interceptions that were dropped. He only had two games over 250 yards and 8 games under 200

Edited February 17, 2022 by IU Scott

[btownqb]

11 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Also had two interceptions that were dropped. He only had two games over 250 yards and 8 games under 200

Yes, the output of yardage was not good enough. 

Throwing passes that were almost INTs is not a stat. 

[rico]

9 hours ago, btownqb said:

 

Throwing passes that were almost INTs is not a stat. 

You mean an official stat?  I am sure someone keeps track of such things.

[btownqb]

1 hour ago, rico said:

You mean an official stat?  I am sure someone keeps track of such things.

We can't bring him back, he threw too many almost INTs. 

[Steubenhoosier]

58 minutes ago, btownqb said:

We can't bring him back, he threw too many almost INTs. 

I was in the Wentz corner for a long time. What changed my mind was almost like a watershed moment. In the Raiders game he had the chance to hit a wide open receiver—JT I think, in the flat who probably would have scored, or at least put them in the position to score and ice the game. Instead he overthrew it by a good 10 yards. We give up the ball and eventually lost the game. I realize that this is just one play out of over a thousand in a season, but it just clarified for me the notion that Wentz was not the guy I want to see under center when a game or season is on the line. That excelling when the pressure was it’s highest was going to be a struggle for him. The Jacksonville game only further cemented my opinion.

Not the first time I have had this feeling. Got the same vibes about Crean when he couldn’t figure out how to beat the Syracuse zone in the S16 game. 
Both scenarios… good up to a point, but not good enough when the stakes are highest 

[btownqb]

16 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I was in the Wentz corner for a long time. What changed my mind was almost like a watershed moment. In the Raiders game he had the chance to hit a wide open receiver—JT I think, in the flat who probably would have scored, or at least put them in the position to score and ice the game. Instead he overthrew it by a good 10 yards. We give up the ball and eventually lost the game. I realize that this is just one play out of over a thousand in a season, but it just clarified for me the notion that Wentz was not the guy I want to see under center when a game or season is on the line. That excelling when the pressure was it’s highest was going to be a struggle for him. The Jacksonville game only further cemented my opinion.

Not the first time I have had this feeling. Got the same vibes about Crean when he couldn’t figure out how to beat the Syracuse zone in the S16 game. 
Both scenarios… good up to a point, but not good enough when the stakes are highest 

Crazy you can pick and choose what you remember about the season and what you don't remember. Looked pretty decent against pressure against the Cards on Xmas. I don't remember many bigger throws then the one he made on 3rd and 9 against the Cards this season to a WR that has two total catches in his career. 

Wentz wins on the road with half his roster out and then the entire team (who had all just had covid) lays two eggs and it's the QBs fault. 

There can't be a way I disagree with all of that anymore then I already do. 

Games 1+2- Rams+Seahawks- he was good

Game 3- @Titans- Not good, and neither was the rest of the team. He was also playing on two severely sprained ankles and the OL was a disaster in this game. 

Game 4- @Mia- Really good

Game 5- @Ravens- great

Game 6- Hou- Good game. We dominated/didn't need his stats and only threw 20 passes

Game 7- @SF- Very good on the road in the rain

Game 8- TEN- played very well until the pick in OT. Disastrous decision. That game should have been won in regulation. 

Game 9- NYJ- played great

Game 10- JAX- did not have a very good game. We didn't really play well as a team, their DL disrupted us. 

Game 11- @BUFF- played fine. We didn't need him in this game, we dominated. 

Game 12- TB- Played very well in this game. Neither pick is his fault. 

Game 13- @Hou- Played fine. We won 31-0. He only threw 22 passes.

Game 14- NE- Sure he struggled, some. Only threw 12 passes, he did make one bad mistake. We still completely controlled this game. 

Game 15- @AZ- He was great

Game 16/17- Sucked. So did our entire team. Absolutely should have still won the Oakland game, regardless. 

 

So, if the INT vs Titans at home and games 16/17 are your deciding factors? That's fine. Best go sign Rodgers then. Idc about Wentz stats in our obvious wins. 

Rams, Seahawks, TB, Ravens were all losses in games where Wentz was good to really good and all of those teams were either good teams or teams that were good before injuries. 

 

[5fouls]

I'm not a Colts fan, but you should only wish Wentz gone if you have a sure-fire, automatic improvement.  Based on the names being thrown out on here, that would be limited to Rodgers and Wilson.   By the time it takes you to draft and groom a young QB, Jonathan Taylor's best seasons may be behind him.  

 

[Steubenhoosier]

10 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Crazy you can pick and choose what you remember about the season and what you don't remember. Looked pretty decent against pressure against the Cards on Xmas. I don't remember many bigger throws then the one he made on 3rd and 9 against the Cards this season to a WR that has two total catches in his career. 

Wentz wins on the road with half his roster out and then the entire team (who had all just had covid) lays two eggs and it's the QBs fault. 

There can't be a way I disagree with all of that anymore then I already do. 

Games 1+2- Rams+Seahawks- he was good

Game 3- @Titans- Not good, and neither was the rest of the team. He was also playing on two severely sprained ankles and the OL was a disaster in this game. 

Game 4- @Mia- Really good

Game 5- @Ravens- great

Game 6- Hou- Good game. We dominated/didn't need his stats and only threw 20 passes

Game 7- @SF- Very good on the road in the rain

Game 8- TEN- played very well until the pick in OT. Disastrous decision. That game should have been won in regulation. 

Game 9- NYJ- played great

Game 10- JAX- did not have a very good game. We didn't really play well as a team, their DL disrupted us. 

Game 11- @BUFF- played fine. We didn't need him in this game, we dominated. 

Game 12- TB- Played very well in this game. Neither pick is his fault. 

Game 13- @Hou- Played fine. We won 31-0. He only threw 22 passes.

Game 14- NE- Sure he struggled, some. Only threw 12 passes, he did make one bad mistake. We still completely controlled this game. 

Game 15- @AZ- He was great

Game 16/17- Sucked. So did our entire team. Absolutely should have still won the Oakland game, regardless. 

 

So, if the INT vs Titans at home and games 16/17 are your deciding factors? That's fine. Best go sign Rodgers then. Idc about Wentz stats in our obvious wins. 

Rams, Seahawks, TB, Ravens were all losses in games where Wentz was good to really good and all of those teams were either good teams or teams that were good before injuries. 

 

Understand what you are saying. Yes, there were a lot of positives in his first season with the Colts. I just can't get past the fact that when it came down to win or go home, he didn't perform.

[NotIThatLives]

10 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Crazy you can pick and choose what you remember about the season and what you don't remember. Looked pretty decent against pressure against the Cards on Xmas. I don't remember many bigger throws then the one he made on 3rd and 9 against the Cards this season to a WR that has two total catches in his career. 

Wentz wins on the road with half his roster out and then the entire team (who had all just had covid) lays two eggs and it's the QBs fault. 

There can't be a way I disagree with all of that anymore then I already do. 

Games 1+2- Rams+Seahawks- he was good

Game 3- @Titans- Not good, and neither was the rest of the team. He was also playing on two severely sprained ankles and the OL was a disaster in this game. 

Game 4- @Mia- Really good

Game 5- @Ravens- great

Game 6- Hou- Good game. We dominated/didn't need his stats and only threw 20 passes

Game 7- @SF- Very good on the road in the rain

Game 8- TEN- played very well until the pick in OT. Disastrous decision. That game should have been won in regulation. 

Game 9- NYJ- played great

Game 10- JAX- did not have a very good game. We didn't really play well as a team, their DL disrupted us. 

Game 11- @BUFF- played fine. We didn't need him in this game, we dominated. 

Game 12- TB- Played very well in this game. Neither pick is his fault. 

Game 13- @Hou- Played fine. We won 31-0. He only threw 22 passes.

Game 14- NE- Sure he struggled, some. Only threw 12 passes, he did make one bad mistake. We still completely controlled this game. 

Game 15- @AZ- He was great

Game 16/17- Sucked. So did our entire team. Absolutely should have still won the Oakland game, regardless. 

 

So, if the INT vs Titans at home and games 16/17 are your deciding factors? That's fine. Best go sign Rodgers then. Idc about Wentz stats in our obvious wins. 

Rams, Seahawks, TB, Ravens were all losses in games where Wentz was good to really good and all of those teams were either good teams or teams that were good before injuries. 

 

So in summary.  He's good, not great and when you need it the most in playoff clinching situations, good isn't good enough.  

It was a messed up year.  I personally would have kept things in house and ran it back.  Irsay or whoever is spouting off to Mort probably ruined those chances, maybe not.  

Why would we go all in on Rodgers?  He has one year left on the deal, iirc.  He would have to choose us and agree to an extension.  Choosing us over 2 or 3 other teams that make as much or more sense.  

Wilson.  He and his wife aren't interested in Indy.  I could see him in San Fran or Tampa once the dust settles.  

Then start going through the list and you have bunch of guys that are what they are in Cousins (look at his contract) Jimmy G( he does talk the talk that he wants to win, well no duh) or J Winston who does have some upside has basically shown he's around a Wentz.  And as Fouls has said, can't waste JT's prime.  

So what do you do?

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Understand what you are saying. Yes, there were a lot of positives in his first season with the Colts. I just can't get past the fact that when it came down to win or go home, he didn't perform.

That doesn't add up though. We were win or go home from week 4 on. We were literally 0-3. It wasn't like the last two games were our only two games all season that mattered. 

I have tried to see your guys view points on this, and I can't. You all put entirely too much stock into 1 game. We could have won with his performance against Oakland, I'm sorry, but it's the truth. There are QBs every weekend that teams find a way to win with a QB performance like that. 

But, he didn't or our team didn't? Why didn't our SPT play better against Oak that had been incredible all year long? Why couldn't we consistently run the ball better in that game? Why did we have so much pressure give up in that game? We gave up pressure on 20 of 28 dropbacks. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

So in summary.  He's good, not great and when you need it the most in playoff clinching situations, good isn't good enough.  

It was a messed up year.  I personally would have kept things in house and ran it back.  Irsay or whoever is spouting off to Mort probably ruined those chances, maybe not.  

Why would we go all in on Rodgers?  He has one year left on the deal, iirc.  He would have to choose us and agree to an extension.  Choosing us over 2 or 3 other teams that make as much or more sense.  

Wilson.  He and his wife aren't interested in Indy.  I could see him in San Fran or Tampa once the dust settles.  

Then start going through the list and you have bunch of guys that are what they are in Cousins (look at his contract) Jimmy G( he does talk the talk that he wants to win, well no duh) or J Winston who does have some upside has basically shown he's around a Wentz.  And as Fouls has said, can't waste JT's prime.  

So what do you do?

Why? 

[NotIThatLives]

16 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Why? 

 

[btownqb]

Just now, NotIThatLives said:

 

So in your opinion you have to have an elite QB to win in the playoffs? I don't share that opinion. 

[NotIThatLives]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

So in your opinion you have to have an elite QB to win in the playoffs? I don't share that opinion. 

No 

I said I would run it back but it looks like someone may have ruined those chances.  So then i rattled off the options and the elites are not happening and the other are not major upgrades.  

I'd keep him and load up on weapons.  

Edit.  I was also summarizing your post

Edited February 17, 2022 by NotIThatLives

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I was in the Wentz corner for a long time. What changed my mind was almost like a watershed moment. In the Raiders game he had the chance to hit a wide open receiver—JT I think, in the flat who probably would have scored, or at least put them in the position to score and ice the game. Instead he overthrew it by a good 10 yards. We give up the ball and eventually lost the game. I realize that this is just one play out of over a thousand in a season, but it just clarified for me the notion that Wentz was not the guy I want to see under center when a game or season is on the line. That excelling when the pressure was it’s highest was going to be a struggle for him. The Jacksonville game only further cemented my opinion.

Not the first time I have had this feeling. Got the same vibes about Crean when he couldn’t figure out how to beat the Syracuse zone in the S16 game. 
Both scenarios… good up to a point, but not good enough when the stakes are highest 

That was TY who was open by 10 yards

[Indykev]

Kurt Warner breaking down Wentz.

[IU Scott]

23 minutes ago, Indykev said:

Kurt Warner breaking down Wentz.

Haven't watched it but from what I have heard it was very telling on what his weaknesses are.

[Steubenhoosier]

2 hours ago, btownqb said:

That doesn't add up though. We were win or go home from week 4 on. We were literally 0-3. It wasn't like the last two games were our only two games all season that mattered. 

I have tried to see your guys view points on this, and I can't. You all put entirely too much stock into 1 game. We could have won with his performance against Oakland, I'm sorry, but it's the truth. There are QBs every weekend that teams find a way to win with a QB performance like that. 

But, he didn't or our team didn't? Why didn't our SPT play better against Oak that had been incredible all year long? Why couldn't we consistently run the ball better in that game? Why did we have so much pressure give up in that game? We gave up pressure on 20 of 28 dropbacks. 

Stock is not based on 1 game. The final 2 for sure, but really more than that. Playing in a division that was arguably the worst, maybe only better than the NFC East, he should have had 4 easy wins and didn’t, and couldn’t beat Tennessee, the team we’re going to have to beat in order to have any shot at advancing through the playoffs. Even in your season breakdown there were several games we won in spite of Wentz. Agree that we are built on running game/defense first, and agree that a team can win a championship without an elite quarterback. However, I want to know that when the running game is bogged down, when the defense is not playing well, that we have the quarterback who can step up and make the plays to compensate. I don’t believe that Wentz has what it takes to be trusted to be that guy. 
Just my opinion, and I’ve stated before, you know a lot more football than I ever will. Keep Wentz and I will just live with the uneasiness until he proves he’s the guy 

[btownqb]

Just now, Steubenhoosier said:

Stock is not based on 1 game. The final 2 for sure, but really more than that. Playing in a division that was arguably the worst, maybe only better than the NFC East, he should have had 4 easy wins and didn’t, and couldn’t beat Tennessee, the team we’re going to have to beat in order to have any shot at advancing through the playoffs. Even in your season breakdown there were several games we won in spite of Wentz. Agree that we are built on running game/defense first, and agree that a team can win a championship without an elite quarterback. However, I want to know that when the running game is bogged down, when the defense is not playing well, that we have the quarterback who can step up and make the plays to compensate. I don’t believe that Wentz has what it takes to be trusted to be that guy. 
Just my opinion, and I’ve stated before, you know a lot more football than I ever will. Keep Wentz and I will just live with the uneasiness until he proves he’s the guy 

Why is it "he" though? Why isn't it the "Colts" should have? And the bolded statement we are talking about one game that I have already admitted he was awful, but so was the entire team. 

The Bills and Chiefs couldn't beat the Titans, either. Neither could the SB champ, at home. So why does that just look so bad on Carson Wentz? Hell Chiefs and Rams couldn't beat them WITHOUT Henry. 

You mentioned games where the running game was bogged down and he needed to perform? Ravens, TB, and Cards absolutely great in those games. Plus games vs. Rams, Seahawks the running game wasn't good and he played well. That's 5 different games the running game wasn't elite and Carson played well-great. We were 1-4 in those games. 

And no, I don't believe we won a single game DESPITE Carson Wentz... which the only two games that could be, would be JAX at home and NE. We were basically perfect the first three qs against NE, outside of a sack that led to a longer FG that was missed. Our offense also missed out on a series in that game or two because of the blocked punt and then we had a 9.5 min scoring drive. That game was so odd, sample size was way too small to be upset out his play in that game. 

The entire team was lethargic against JAX at home, he wasn't some overly weak link in either of those games that our team had to overcome, I don't think. And btw, WE won those games. 

I'm not trying to make this an "I know more about football convo".. honestly I'm not. I simply believe you are allowing the last two games to completely overshadow a pretty darn good first year with the Colts. Again, that's my opinion. 

FWIW, I don't think we beat JAX, even if he plays well. 

[5fouls]

10 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Stock is not based on 1 game. The final 2 for sure, but really more than that. Playing in a division that was arguably the worst, maybe only better than the NFC East, he should have had 4 easy wins and didn’t, and couldn’t beat Tennessee, the team we’re going to have to beat in order to have any shot at advancing through the playoffs. Even in your season breakdown there were several games we won in spite of Wentz. Agree that we are built on running game/defense first, and agree that a team can win a championship without an elite quarterback. However, I want to know that when the running game is bogged down, when the defense is not playing well, that we have the quarterback who can step up and make the plays to compensate. I don’t believe that Wentz has what it takes to be trusted to be that guy. 
Just my opinion, and I’ve stated before, you know a lot more football than I ever will. Keep Wentz and I will just live with the uneasiness until he proves he’s the guy 

I think the big issue here is not Wentz himself, but whether the Colts can realistically find a QB that will be an upgrade.  You take Rodgers and Wilson out of the equation and there is not a guaranteed upgrade out there.  I just don't see a Wentz for Jimmy G swap making sense.  Wentz for J. Winston is even more of a gamble,  

Irsay is creating all of this noise without any clear alternatives.  That is a bad move in my opinion.

[BGleas]

4 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I was in the Wentz corner for a long time. What changed my mind was almost like a watershed moment. In the Raiders game he had the chance to hit a wide open receiver—JT I think, in the flat who probably would have scored, or at least put them in the position to score and ice the game. Instead he overthrew it by a good 10 yards. We give up the ball and eventually lost the game. I realize that this is just one play out of over a thousand in a season, but it just clarified for me the notion that Wentz was not the guy I want to see under center when a game or season is on the line. That excelling when the pressure was it’s highest was going to be a struggle for him. The Jacksonville game only further cemented my opinion.

Not the first time I have had this feeling. Got the same vibes about Crean when he couldn’t figure out how to beat the Syracuse zone in the S16 game. 
Both scenarios… good up to a point, but not good enough when the stakes are highest 

I can tell you as an Eagles fan, Wentz over throwing passes to backs or recievers in the flat is NOT a rare occurrence.