Stories That Make You Shake Your Head At The World

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Uh... @NotIThatLives saw it, and lived it... I think that's about as "real" as it gets...

I'm sure in many inner city schools cops or SROs ARE hated... People who're involved in wrongdoing don't want anyone that's going to call them on it around...

God forbid a kid bringing weapons or drugs to school have to experience the consequences of their actions

 

Cops are hated but when it gets personal and you get on a first name basis and it's everyday,  you see the face and not the uniform.  In my education training,  whoever, school psychologists, etc, say that a kids mental make up is determined by their interactions by 3rd grade.  If they have a positive experience with police then positive.  Also, if they are ever put in handcuffs, they are way more likely to not graduate.  That is also not what we want.  We want a safe, positive interaction.  Which would happen,  99.999% of the time.  

Edited March 29, 2023 by NotIThatLives

[IUFLA]

7 hours ago, 5fouls said:

The reality is that these shootings are not being performed using handguns or shotguns. 

Not true... Handguns are the most common weapon type used in mass shootings in the United States including the worst school shooting in US history (Virginia Tech).

[NotIThatLives]

7 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Unfortunately, if we put armed security guards in schools, some clueless kid with a water pistol will get killed by the guard, and then we have a totally different form of public outrage.  The reality is that these shootings are not being performed using handguns or shotguns.  The most logical answer to the problem lies within that statement.    

All the schools I was at had police in them.  That was kokomo, don't know about the rest of the world.  

[IUFLA]

When I was a kid, I couldn't imagine the need for police in schools... 

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

Not true... Handguns are the most common weapon type used in mass shootings in the United States including the worst school shooting in US history (Virginia Tech).

If a father kills his wife and 3 children, that's considered a mass shooting.  Convenience store robber panics and kills clerk and some customers is considered a mass shooting.  A drug deal gone bad could result in a mass shooting.    And, let's not lose sight of the fact that there are 'handguns' out there that don't fit the commonly accepted definition of the word.  Totally different animals than what we are talking about here.  

You know the difference, I know the difference, and the shooters that are killing children know the difference.  They are not walking into these schools with the type of handgun a woman slips into her purse or a man uses to protect his household. 

 

[IUFLA]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

You know the difference, I know the difference

I certainly do... I also know the similarities of a semi-automatic handgun and a semi-automatic rifle... And Audrey Hale could have done the same thing she did yesterday with either...

It's not the weapon... It's the person holding it... 

[Reacher]

16 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

Oh, I’m well aware that the police that we pay taxes for to enforce laws are weak and useless. The laws are circumvented b/c the people who we pay to enforce them don’t actually do anything. 

What is the answer though? I’m not trying to be a dick, I’m just upset that nothing ever changes and we value guns over our children. Same with traffic deaths. The answers are obvious, but god forbid, we slow down or reroute traffic. 

 

 

Quite simply enforce the laws. Evenly and fairly.  Quit prosecuting the police for doing their job. What police officer is going to risk his freedom and life savings to do the job the way they were trained only to be sued because something inevitably goes wrong? The President, Governor, Mayor etc ALL have to be supportive and set the culture the way Giuliani did. Judges have to sentence criminals properly. Jails can't release everyone to save $.

The FBI is no longer a law enforcement agency but rather a political office. Why were they not aware of this shooter? Apparently there were signs.

Maybe we should realize giving testosterones to females is likely to increase their aggressiveness?

For schools, controlled access, metal detectors, drills, hidden armed security are all working in various places. Tighten those things up.

Everywhere you look, there have been failures and they all incrementally add to the problem. Going to take a long time to turn this around.

 

[Reacher]

15 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

There are SERIOUS negative effects on students having even a few cops in a school, much less a fully armed presence. But… is anything else going to work that is actually achievable? I am losing hope and am beginning to think not.  

Cops have been in schools for at least 40 years- since I was a  student. In some cases walking the halls (witnessed that in a Chicago school on an exchange day field trip) or in an office after school. I remember K9 teams coming in a couple times a year to search for drugs in lockers. My neighbor is a teacher and he says kids at his school openly vape and use marijuana. He comes home and has to change clothes right away due to the smell.

Best suggestion I have seen is to have teachers volunteer, or be paid a small amount to be properly trained and carry concealed. Students would never know who is carrying that day. Does Mrs Smith have a gun in her purse on Tuesday? Schools don't have to be an armed encampment.  The vast majority already have some buzzer system to enter. Now we know glass doors probably arent the most effective.

[HoosierFaithful]

Sure seems like we trust teachers to play armed guard but we don’t trust them to do much else. 

[Reacher]

15 hours ago, HoosierFaithful said:

The research is pretty clear that more cops in schools don’t really make them safer in any meaningful way and they also increase the school to prison pipeline. 
 

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1163923.pdf

Despite these significant shortcomings, I am not sure I have a better solution. If this is the solution implemented, folks need to give serious consideration to the side effects. Notably - these SRO’s should not be handling disciplinary issues. 

Crimes in schools should be prosecuted. Part of the reason why we are where we are is because schools don't penalize bullying, fighting and more. Not saying that jail is always the answer. Detentions, community service, other programs should come first. When a high school senior assaults and hospitalizes a teacher, I think some type of juvenile or adult jail is warranted.

[NotIThatLives]

10 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Sure seems like we trust teachers to play armed guard but we don’t trust them to do much else. 

I was a combat infantryman and my buddy across the hall did search and seizure for coast guard.  Every building I taught in over 9.5 years, 5 different buildings, 3 different corporations all had multiple veterans besides myself.   No one would ask Nancy the librarian afraid of the sun to conceal carry.  I even had the idea of a biometric safe instead of personal carry.  

But I get it, you will likely be against it no matter what.  No middle ground.  Shoot me your ideas and we will see.  

[rico]

17 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Sure seems like we trust teachers to play armed guard but we don’t trust them to do much else. 

You want possible solutions don't you?  I see them given and yet some divert from them.  Why is that?

Edited March 29, 2023 by rico

[Reacher]

9 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Sure seems like we trust teachers to play armed guard but we don’t trust them to do much else. 

Not sure what you mean by this. I thought educators are generally pretty well regarded. There are always going to be a few bad apples but that is the exception rather than the rule. 

[Drroogh]

Why even let them on the property? You don’t need armed security just people watching security cameras. Someone drives in who shouldn’t be there, call the police!!

Edit: Used to work water treatment, after 911 water treatment plants were considered hard targets. With the advent of SCATA systems the whole plant was run by one person! Security camera systems that could be monitored remotely were mandatory!

Edit 2: Pass State law that anyone on school property, they and their vehicle are subject to warrant less searches.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Drroogh

[mrflynn03]

I've read through some of this. A few things. 

Why don't schools have bullet proof glass?  Why can't teachers who want to be allowed to carry concealed?  For schools with resource officers why not have an AR15 locked in the principles office.

Why does nobody seriously discuss mental health?  Well, that's too hard and hurts people's feelings. How about funding the construction of state asylums and involuntarily committing people?

[mrflynn03]

16 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

We are actually having recruitment issues in our forces.  

Because military aged kids are too fat for one thing. That alone cuts the pool significantly.

[HoosierFaithful]

40 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I was a combat infantryman and my buddy across the hall did search and seizure for coast guard.  Every building I taught in over 9.5 years, 5 different buildings, 3 different corporations all had multiple veterans besides myself.   No one would ask Nancy the librarian afraid of the sun to conceal carry.  I even had the idea of a biometric safe instead of personal carry.  

But I get it, you will likely be against it no matter what.  No middle ground.  Shoot me your ideas and we will see.  

You've already gotten a pretty bleeding heart liberal to agree to make schools like fortresses, I'm not sure how you can say I'm the one with no middle ground here.  

[HoosierFaithful]

32 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Not sure what you mean by this. I thought educators are generally pretty well regarded. There are always going to be a few bad apples but that is the exception rather than the rule. 

If you think the common thinking of teachers right now is as "well regarded," I would have to politely disagree.  In addition to not paying teachers enough, and wanting to watch over and litigate every word they say in the classroom, we now want to sign them up as a militia? 

I sense I am getting too invested in this topic, so I am going to take my own advice and back off.  We all agree something needs to be done here.  I believe firmly everything needs to be on the table, even things that make me queasy, like SRO's and their profound negative impact on students (some more than others).  What else can we do to lessen this horrific trend?

[RoadToZion]

Guns arent the problem when this person cant decide if he/she/it, wants to be a boy or girl. Thats mental illness. 

[NotIThatLives]

4 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

You've already gotten a pretty bleeding heart liberal to agree to make schools like fortresses, I'm not sure how you can say I'm the one with no middle ground here.  

Another in depth conversation. 

OK 

[mrflynn03]

17 hours ago, Lostin76 said:

So, the answer is not to do anything about the US being absolutely flooded with guns. To let people open carry multiple guns literally in every single open public space w/o restriction, and then add more guns by having armed volunteer guards at the entrance and exit of every public venue. 

Sounds like fun AND freedom. 

Not attacking you as a poster, but I see this argument as a solution, and I just can’t see how more guns is the solution. 

People don't open carry multiple guns. I rarely see open carry anyway. At most any capable person has a primary and a backup. You can only use one at a time anyway. 

I'm guessing this person had multiple guns because it didn't have extra magazines. It's much easier to carry extra mags. And as far as ammo and guns, I don't think people realize how quickly it can get heavy. 

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

But I get it, you will likely be against it no matter what.  No middle ground.  Shoot me your ideas and we will see.  

I know this was not directed at me, and I certainly am not someone who is considered liberal.  However, I will offer a middle ground solution, and it will be summarily dismissed, or ignored, by those who feel differently.  No middle ground coming from that direction.

My solution.  Let people keep their handguns they use for protection.  Let people keep their shotguns and hunting rifles.  Those are the types of weapons our forefathers had in mind when the constitution was written.  

However, outside of law enforcement and the military. ban and criminalize the sale and possession of the types of weapons these school shooters are using to kill children.  Other than protecting a 'right' that was given in our constitution (which we all know did not consider this type of world), what does the average Joe gain from ownership of these weapons?

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

If you think the common thinking of teachers right now is as "well regarded," I would have to politely disagree.  In addition to not paying teachers enough, and wanting to watch over and litigate every word they say in the classroom, we now want to sign them up as a militia? 

I sense I am getting too invested in this topic, so I am going to take my own advice and back off.  We all agree something needs to be done here.  I believe firmly everything needs to be on the table, even things that make me queasy, like SRO's and their profound negative impact on students (some more than others).  What else can we do to lessen this horrific trend?

I think the overwhelming majority of teachers are thought of highly by their students and parents. Of course there are a few that make the news- usually for getting too far away from teaching match, science, writing and reading. I don't think that is the norm.

If you think teachers aren't paid enough, I'd like to introduce you to one of my clients. Husband and wife. Retired 10 years now. Teacher and administrator. They have a combined pension in excess of $250,000/ year. I know that is not typical. As a small business owner, I get a handful of unpaid days off per year and have to save for my retirement. If I had a do over, I would have become a teacher, had 3+ months off per year, retired early and found another job / pension to stack on top of the first. There are many private school teachers who are vastly underpaid and teach because they love it. They are true heroes.

[mrflynn03]

I think the reason nothing has been done is nobody knows what to do.  I don't think normal people can comprehend the depravity of these people. And I don't think legislating guns will do anything. Autos and semi autos have been around for over 100 years.

The difference is these kinds of people didn't exist back then in the numbers they do today. It is a societal problem more than anything. These people are marginalized in person and further isolated and radicalized through internet and social media. 

[IUFLA]

38 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I know this was not directed at me, and I certainly am not someone who is considered liberal.  However, I will offer a middle ground solution, and it will be summarily dismissed, or ignored, by those who feel differently.  No middle ground coming from that direction.

My solution.  Let people keep their handguns they use for protection.  Let people keep their shotguns and hunting rifles.  Those are the types of weapons our forefathers had in mind when the constitution was written.  

However, outside of law enforcement and the military. ban and criminalize the sale and possession of the types of weapons these school shooters are using to kill children.  Other than protecting a 'right' that was given in our constitution (which we all know did not consider this type of world), what does the average Joe gain from ownership of these weapons?

So taking something away from me while "allowing" me to keep something else when both are protections provided to me under our Constitution is "common ground?"

When the Constitution was written, the government had the same type of firepower the citizenry did. The 2nd amendment was written so the common man could protect himself from "enemies foreign and domestic."

And that includes a tyrannical government...

I've already stated to you that someone skilled in firearms could exact the same hell with a handgun that they could with the weapons you want to take away...

Of course if that was the case, what would you propose after the first suicidal nut went into a school with a handgun or 2 and performed the same monsterous act?

I think I know that answer... 

Edited March 29, 2023 by IUFLA