Army Post Game Thread

[5fouls]

Just now, BGleas said:

Yeah, I've posted about that lineup too. I don't think I've ever said it should be the starting lineup and that Reneau shouldn't play. 

Several stated it should be the starting lineup, with Reneau providing post offense to the 2nd unit.  That theory would make a little sense if we're talking about a guy like Edey who can't play heavy minutes.  But, Ware can and should be out there for 35 a night.  

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

Several stated it should be the starting lineup, with Reneau providing post offense to the 2nd unit.  That theory would make a little sense if we're talking about a guy like Edey who can't play heavy minutes.  But, Ware can and should be out there for 35 a night.  

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that, and I haven't, and this discussion has largely been you and me, with a few others chiming in who also haven't said it. 

[BGleas]

I'll just leave it at this, and apologies for hijacking this thread, but I don't get what it so controversial about saying we should get Mgbako minutes at the 4? 

For this team to reach it's ceiling Mgbako has to be better and he has to massively improve his defensive effort, but the staff also has to figure out how to utilize his talents and unlock his offensive potential. 

Standing in the corner like Miller Kopp's old role ain't it. 

This team is going to have to take way more 3's than we currently do. We can't go all season taking less than our opponents make. I just don't think that works. 

I'm not saying to bench Reneau. I'm saying we have to find ways to play faster, smaller and more perimeter oriented for stretches and now is the time to get that figured out. 

I think Mgbako playing at the 4 at times could really unlock him offensively and accomplish some of the above. 

But, we haven't even tried it for a second. 

[5fouls]

Supposedly, during the post-game press conference, X said something of the nature that the lack of effort shown in the game is a carryover from a lack of effort in practice and preparation before the game.  Combine that with his on the court comments right after the game to the court reporter about guys being soft and I have concerns with the overall dynamic of the team.

I know some on here don't particularly love X, but I do think he plays his butt off and cares about winning.  Sounds as if those character traits don't describe everyone on the team.  

Edited November 13, 2023 by 5fouls

[5fouls]

Snippet from ITH recap.

https://www.insidethehall.com/2023/11/12/the-minute-after-army/?fbclid=IwAR3uyoEfLLZQ52vVz8sHcdFHStNK3t8ccAejSrQ3uRT0mXsuEQ9SBluLElo

 

 

 

[MaroonRebel]

2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Reneau had 14 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, and 3 blocks tonight.  Don't try to tell me that MM deserves to be the 4 in a 3-guard lineup.  Just don't.  

Fine then MM needs to be the 4 in the second squad and we can play two 5's with the three guards. Reneau has not shown he can play the 4 (at least on defense), He may with time, and he should get those numbers against Army. They had one true post player in the game at any time and he was on Ware. The combination of MM, Ware, and Reneau has no flow (and does not spread the floor). Maybe it is the guards... who knows, but the offense looks terrible with that combo and the defense is not much better. Which is why people are looking for answers..... So put me in the camp of changing the line-up... I know everyone on here just wants IU to be successful. We just don't always agree on how.Go Hoosiers!

[3Ballin]

6 hours ago, BGleas said:

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that, and I haven't, and this discussion has largely been you and me, with a few others chiming in who also haven't said it. 

🙋‍♂️ i said it and it wasnt meant as a knock ok Malik. Start smaller, then you can bring Malik in at the 4 and have a talented front court to shoulder some of the scoring, then when the next round of subs come in, move Malik to the 5 and give Ware a break when we get more of a 4-1 look again. 

I coached pee-wee basketball for 3 years....im somewhat of an expert on the matter. 

[Between2Halls]

I WILL NOT GET MY HOPES TOO HIGH

I WILL NOT GET MY HOPES TOO HIGH

I WILL NOT GET MY HOPES TOO HIGH

I WILL NOT GET MY HOPES TOO HIGH

I WILL NOT GET MY HOPES TOO HIGH

[IUCrazy2]

8 hours ago, 5fouls said:

The coach is playing, and scheming for, who is being more productive in the opportunities provided.  I'm not going to criticize Woodson for that.  Did Bob Knight 'make' Calbert Cheaney a great wing player, or did Calbert have a little bit to do with proving himself from Day 1? 

I repeat, Kaleb Banks out-produced MM tonight, in fewer minutes.  Woodson didn't go out of his way to scheme for Banks.  

 

Kaleb played with Cupps, Gunn, Johnson, and Sparks IIRC (so less alphas looking to score).  And Banks got his 3 pointer on a quick kick around.  The problem with our first string offense is that we generally have 2 shoot first guys on the interior and since we don't run much outside of the pick and roll to free up our guards, our ability to put up 3's is almost entirely reliant on kick outs (or a guy trying to get his and just throwing one up) and those just aren't happening.

I am not sure what exactly we are trying to run offensively.

Defensively, we have a big team.  I don't understand all the over helping on the perimeter.  I want your guard to drive into our interior as opposed to throwing up a 3.  Drive away.  I have shot blockers and bodies galore on the interior.  Come on down dude.

[5fouls]

14 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Kaleb played with Cupps, Gunn, Johnson, and Sparks IIRC (so less alphas looking to score).  And Banks got his 3 pointer on a quick kick around.  The problem with our first string offense is that we generally have 2 shoot first guys on the interior and since we don't run much outside of the pick and roll to free up our guards, our ability to put up 3's is almost entirely reliant on kick outs (or a guy trying to get his and just throwing one up) and those just aren't happening.

I am not sure what exactly we are trying to run offensively.

Defensively, we have a big team.  I don't understand all the over helping on the perimeter.  I want your guard to drive into our interior as opposed to throwing up a 3.  Drive away.  I have shot blockers and bodies galore on the interior.  Come on down dude.

I don't see Ware as a 'shoot first' guy.  Yes, he is scoring a good percentage of the times the ball gets thrown to him, but that's because they are alley-oops or entry passes that lead to an easy dunk.  Maybe I'm just not paying attention, but I rarely see him work around inside when he does not have an immediate shot.

Edited November 13, 2023 by 5fouls

[IUCrazy2]

34 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I don't see Ware as a 'shoot first' guy.  Yes, he is scoring a good percentage of the times the ball gets thrown to him, but that's because they are alley-oops or entry passes that lead to an easy dunk.  Maybe I'm just not paying attention, but I rarely see him work around inside when he does not have an immediate shot.

He will pass and he has had some good assists to guys that are cutting to the rim.  I think that we just don't look for the 3 like other programs do.  Our bigs get the ball and that is thouhht #1, 2, and 3.  How do I get a shot up. Also, with the amount of bigs we have and the inability to find open shooters right now, we should maybe be pounding the ball in there more. (Counter intuitive to everything above, I know.) I know it isn't the modern style but it at least is a style.  We did that for a bit in the second half last night and Ware ran off like 8 straight points.  

I just get the impression that we don't know who we want to be on either end of the floor.

Edited November 13, 2023 by IUCrazy2

[HoosierDPU95]

8 hours ago, KDB said:

Woody after the game: “For the most part, we played pretty good basketball.”

I watched the presser again this morning. He said, "for the most part we played pretty good basketball defensively keeping them to 64 points" 

It was obvious that he was not happy with the offense at all.

[IUCrazy2]

1 minute ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

I watched the presser again this morning. He said, "for the most part we played pretty good basketball defensively keeping them to 64 points" 

It was obvious that he was not happy with the offense at all.

He shouldn't have been happy with the defense either.  That was not a good team we played.

[Hoosier987]

8 hours ago, BGleas said:

Again, I don't disagree with much of that. But, Mgbako is going to play. He's going to get minutes. 

But, he hadn't gotten a single minute at the 4 yet. Why not?

I have never said he should be starting at the 4, but we should be giving him some minutes there. 

It's also a different defensive assignment and responsibilities at the 4, and maybe those would be easier for him to understand?

I'm saying we haven't tried it at all. Not for a single second. If he's in a better position to be successful maybe some of the issues get minimized. 

We are going to need his shooting ability to be a better team and need to find way to utilize it. 

There's no reason why he can't get some minutes there. 

You’re spot on. For this team to be successful you need to get Mgbako playing to his ability and position him where he needs to be. 

I was literally about to mention the defensive assignments at the 4 but you beat me to it. It’s a huge difference in college…another reason why he should be playing the 4.

[HoosierDPU95]

Just now, IUCrazy2 said:

He shouldn't have been happy with the defense either.  That was not a good team we played.

He didn't sound "happy" about anything (rightly so) to be honest. They obviously have a goal around keeping opponents under a certain number as I he made a similar comment after the first game. I took it as more of "well we achieved one of our goals but everything else stunk" 

[IUCrazy2]

So here is the thing that has me hitting the panic button a little bit.  Yes, it is early, but the last few times we were performing this poorly early in the season against this level of competition, we had some absolutely awful years.

I need to see something against Wright State.  Individually, these players are far too good to be turning in performances like this.  I know that good teams are better than the sum of their parts but these guys should be able to coast to a 20+ point win in games like this.  Having one game go rough...ok...but that first game against FGCU should have lit a fire and instead we laid another egg.

[IUCrazy2]

2 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

He didn't sound "happy" about anything (rightly so) to be honest. They obviously have a goal around keeping opponents under a certain number as I he made a similar comment after the first game. I took it as more of "well we achieved one of our goals but everything else stunk" 

Yeah, but to me that goal has to be adjusted to level of team.  "Holding" Army to 64 when a bottom feeding team had just held them to 44 the game before is not a positive.

[Hoosier987]

Hoosiers don’t look good. Certainly some of it is on the players but a lot is on coaching. I’ve said this and will repeat it. Woodson’s stubbornness in not adjusting schematically to this team’s strengths will be a pitfall this season. Hopefully he sees it…also, the NBA mass substitution pattern. Despite stars/rankings… Our second unit would lose to just about anyone in the country playing together. Please don’t put them in against stiffer competition…a recipe for disaster (Already has been in our first two games).

lastly, stop with the over helping…it leads to a 3 point barrage. We’ve seen this for 3 years now.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Hoosier987

[Hoosier987]

3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yeah, but to me that goal has to be adjusted to level of team.  "Holding" Army to 64 when a bottom feeding team had just held them to 44 the game before is not a positive.

Excellent point. They scored 44 against Stonehill.

[Artesian_86]

IMO.....Cupps should be the first one off the bench, if not a sniff at starting a few times along with X. 

I like a line up of....

X, Cupps, Ware, Galloway, Reneau. I think at this point, 2 games in, Cupps steals Mgbako's starting spot. I agree with what others are saying..... Mgbako has tremendous, tremendous upside, but defense is an ABSOLUTE must from him. I honestly think Coach Woodson is very frustrated with Mgbako's play of late because he should be playing way better that he is.

Just 2 games in this year and I find myself getting antsy, wondering when Cupps will come in. IMO, he has to play more than he has been right now. I know he's not the primary pg, because X is, but his defense alone and court awareness is extremely impressive. 

[rico]

We should have fired Tom Allen a few weeks back and this wouldn't be happening to our basketball team.

[HoosierDPU95]

5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yeah, but to me that goal has to be adjusted to level of team.  "Holding" Army to 64 when a bottom feeding team had just held them to 44 the game before is not a positive.

We had 17 turnovers (12 of which were steals). Combining that with them attempting almost 40 3's then I would say "holding" them to 64 was decent or OK or "pretty good" all things considered.

My original comment was responding to someone saying Woody made the comment that we played pretty good basketball in general which was just not at all what he said.

 

[IU Scott]

8 hours ago, 5fouls said:

If Todd Leary had not compared MM to Jay Edwards, the narrative on this board right now would be a lot different. 

Jay Edwards was hands down the best pure scorer I every say put on an IU uniform.  That said, he was also a notorious defensive liability.  IU was ranked 6th preseason his freshman year, and coming off a National Championship.  They finished 19-10 overall and 11-7 in conference.   

We can romanticize about the next Jay Edwards all we want, but what does that even mean in the grand scheme of things.

If you just look at his form and his smooth release it shows a player who can shoot.  It had nothing to what Leary said about him and I never knew he even said that about MM

[KDB]

2 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

My original comment was responding to someone saying Woody made the comment that we played pretty good basketball in general which was just not at all what he said.

I didn't watch the presser, I just saw TDH tweet that quote so I posted it here. Good to know.

[Artesian_86]

8 hours ago, BGleas said:

I'll just leave it at this, and apologies for hijacking this thread, but I don't get what it so controversial about saying we should get Mgbako minutes at the 4? 

For this team to reach it's ceiling Mgbako has to be better and he has to massively improve his defensive effort, but the staff also has to figure out how to utilize his talents and unlock his offensive potential. 

Standing in the corner like Miller Kopp's old role ain't it. 

This team is going to have to take way more 3's than we currently do. We can't go all season taking less than our opponents make. I just don't think that works. 

I'm not saying to bench Reneau. I'm saying we have to find ways to play faster, smaller and more perimeter oriented for stretches and now is the time to get that figured out. 

I think Mgbako playing at the 4 at times could really unlock him offensively and accomplish some of the above. 

But, we haven't even tried it for a second. 

I totally agree BGleas...... I bolded your comments that I like.

MgBako is a star athlete, but he playing like the game needs to come to him instead of taking over. He definitely has other gears that we have not seen yet. Put him in with the wolves and bang around with others at the 4 a little is only going to make him better. JMO....