Army Post Game Thread

[OGIUAndy]

10 hours ago, BGleas said:

I'll just leave it at this, and apologies for hijacking this thread, but I don't get what it so controversial about saying we should get Mgbako minutes at the 4? 

For this team to reach it's ceiling Mgbako has to be better and he has to massively improve his defensive effort, but the staff also has to figure out how to utilize his talents and unlock his offensive potential. 

Standing in the corner like Miller Kopp's old role ain't it. 

This team is going to have to take way more 3's than we currently do. We can't go all season taking less than our opponents make. I just don't think that works. 

I'm not saying to bench Reneau. I'm saying we have to find ways to play faster, smaller and more perimeter oriented for stretches and now is the time to get that figured out. 

I think Mgbako playing at the 4 at times could really unlock him offensively and accomplish some of the above. 

But, we haven't even tried it for a second. 

Agree with all of this. 

[bluegrassIU]

1 hour ago, Hoosier987 said:

Margin of victory? With all due respect…we nearly lost that game. It was tied with 3 min left. Had we lost to Army, we would’ve been trying to dig ourselves out of a bottomless hole.  The worst defeat we took in the KenPom era was back in 2008-2009 to I believe IUPUI who was #214. For comparison sake, Army is at #327 truly an awful team…yes, they are below Chicago State.
 

The 2nd unit is not it. I’m not against playing those players but we cannot play all of them at once. We have zero scoring and individuals who are constantly lost on the court (some who have been in the system for now 2 years). Woodson needs to try and shrink the bench. 

This all goes back to the off season. We needed an additional guard or two…not more length or raw players who may be able bodied but are not able to score. 

Not disagreeing the overall point you are making. But using kenpom right now is pretty much useless.

 

[Kdug]

IMO the lack of 3 point attempts on offense isn’t one of my bigger concerns yet. I would like to see more going forward, but in this game we had a 62.8% eFG%. Even considering the competition, that’s very good.

The bigger issues were turnovers, rebounding, and three point defense. a lot of the issues with our perimeter defense seemed to be miscommunications or lack of effort. The turnovers also seemed to be partially due to lack of communication, but also a lack of confidence in what we were doing offensively. Those all seem fixable, but I’m worried it’ll take some time and won’t be fixed before we take some bad losses.

With rebounding, it feels like Ware goes to block/contest a shot, but nobody comes down to help with rebounding. I think Ware and Malik need to be better, but the guards also need to chip in. Honestly, I’m not sure what the fix is here since it was an issue last year as well.

 

[NCHoosier32]

A lot of really frustrating things.  On one hand, I would argue that we have the talent.  We have 3 former 5 star recruits.  We have a super experienced PG as a 4th and Galloway who is a returning starter.  Sure, it stands to reason that we lost a lot of talent and we have so many new faces that chemistry issues are expected.  However, isn't that true with most college teams these days?  It hurts that 3 of our best players are probably best suited as a 4.  Undoubtedly best suited as a 4 or 5.  So what do you do?  Not start one of them?  Maybe.  I have always been a fan of starting my 5 best players and giving them a lot of minutes together, then figuring out what style to play, etc, but that ain't workin!  I'm sure MM was sold on the idea of he'll be a 3 in the NBA and we'd give him a chance to showcase that, so it's tough to yank that away.  Would also be really tough to sell Reneau on coming off the bench I'm sure.  For the record, I was devastated when Woodson was hired, but readily admit I like the direction he seems to have us going and the alumni support and hype around the program.  All of that and his recruiting seem to be easy to get behind.  I'm just not sold on the idea that he is a great college bball coach like some seem to easily give him.  I refuse to accept that this season is already a wash!  We have too much talent to have a horrible season.  I'm gonna tell myself that we are still 2-0 and should win Thurs.  One game at a time.  (Okay, yes, I question if we'll win Thurs and feel like UConn will beat us by 30) 

[NCHoosier32]

13 hours ago, 13th&Jackson said:

We are going to waste our one season with Ware

This bothers me as well

[go_iu_bb]

4 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

A lot of really frustrating things.  On one hand, I would argue that we have the talent.  We have 3 former 5 star recruits.  We have a super experienced PG as a 4th and Galloway who is a returning starter.  Sure, it stands to reason that we lost a lot of talent and we have so many new faces that chemistry issues are expected.  However, isn't that true with most college teams these days?  It hurts that 3 of our best players are probably best suited as a 4.  Undoubtedly best suited as a 4 or 5.  So what do you do?  Not start one of them?  Maybe.  I have always been a fan of starting my 5 best players and giving them a lot of minutes together, then figuring out what style to play, etc, but that ain't workin!  I'm sure MM was sold on the idea of he'll be a 3 in the NBA and we'd give him a chance to showcase that, so it's tough to yank that away.  Would also be really tough to sell Reneau on coming off the bench I'm sure.  For the record, I was devastated when Woodson was hired, but readily admit I like the direction he seems to have us going and the alumni support and hype around the program.  All of that and his recruiting seem to be easy to get behind.  I'm just not sold on the idea that he is a great college bball coach like some seem to easily give him.  I refuse to accept that this season is already a wash!  We have too much talent to have a horrible season.  I'm gonna tell myself that we are still 2-0 and should win Thurs.  One game at a time.  (Okay, yes, I question if we'll win Thurs and feel like UConn will beat us by 30) 

Part of the problem is that this team doesn't really have the guard/wing depth to not start one of those guys.

[Reacher]

What a terrible weekend. FB team loses, women get blown out and then this uninspiring performance vs Army. Don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. I do think the game film will help to speed up the learning curve and some of these guys will see the light come on leading to a better team later in the year.  No idea what our ceiling is given these first few games. We are just going to have to be patient as this year develops. I know that is not a strong suit for IU fans...

[Kdug]

1 minute ago, Reacher said:

What a terrible weekend. FB team loses, women get blown out and then this uninspiring performance vs Army. Don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. I do think the game film will help to speed up the learning curve and some of these guys will see the light come on leading to a better team later in the year.  No idea what our ceiling is given these first few games. We are just going to have to be patient as this year develops. I know that is not a strong suit for IU fans...

You’re forgetting the biggest IU game of the weekend. Men’s soccer winning another big ten tournament title and playing their best right before the tourney.

With the men’s bball team, agreed they will require quite a bit of patience. I expected some early struggles, but not to this extent. It’s way too early to panic, but definitely a concerning start to the year. I still think this team has immense potential if they can put it together, but they have a long way to go to reach that potential.

[Hoosierdave]

I’d personally like to see Cupps in the starting lineup. Healthy debate who should start at the 4 but I think having Cupps start will help ratchet up the defensive intensity. Don’t allow teams to get hot and comfortable early, and hopefully create bad shots and turnovers that result in easy transition baskets and gain some confidence and momentum there. 

As others have mentioned, I would like to see what things look like without Ware/MR on the floor at the same time. Ill probably get flamed for this but I think I’m ok with pounding the ball in when you have those 2 in together because they can score easy baskets and cause foul troubles for smaller teams. I don’t like right now what we have to offer on the perimeter, so getting easy baskets/fouls and forcing teams to double should hopefully result in wide open shots for X/Gallo/Gunn/Cupps and hope they take advantage. 

[IUFLA]

Just rewatched Woody's post game, and one of the things he said was "we gotta move it, we gotta trust each other. I mean we catch the ball, and the first thing we think about is putting the ball down on the floor and making a play for myself."

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by IUFLA

[5fouls]

It's good to know that Cupps appears to be capable of handling a critical role on the team and capable of starting if needed due to injury.  

That said, I don't think he should start now for a variety of reasons.  The most obvious is our lack of guard depth.  To be fair to the coaches, the Newton injury is significant in that regard.

It's just not sustainable to play all 3 of Cupps, XJ, and Galloway 30+ minutes a night.  You can get away with it for a while in non-conference, but it will come back to bite you in the middle of the Big Ten season.

Use those three together to close games when needed, but dont force feed it earlier in the game.

Bottom line is, with the roster in place, the team is going to need Mgbako and Banks to cover the majority of minutes at the 3.  Maybe neither one of those is an ideal 3, but any other lineup construction causes other issues that are just as, or more, harmful to the team.  

Focus on getting max value out of Mgbako and Banks at the 3 and let the other 4 positions play at full strength.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by 5fouls

[Purdue7]

2 hours ago, Artesian_86 said:

and this post is coming from a Purdue fan.....🤨, I'm having a hard time both reading this post and taking it seriously......

Come on…

I’ve watched IU & Purdue since 76 

Playing hard  

team basketball 

Those were a given 

 

CMW shouldn’t have to coach effort 

IT’S FREAKING IU 🏀

I guess the banners & candy stripes don’t matter anymore 

 

only positives from that game 

XJ was engaged!  Trying to lead 

same with Cupps 

Ware has to be on the floor to protect the rim since nobody played defense 

 

I realize a bunch of guys came in thinking I’m the man or one & done 

Might take a month to sort out 

 

[Purdue7]

1 hour ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

Just an observation..

When asked about the stagnant offense. Woody said they need to "trust each other" and stop playing for themselves. There is some selfishness for sure but also a lot of hesitation on offense (perhaps because of lack of trust). Too often multiple, unnecessary fakes before a pass, etc. 

Watch that play just before the 2:00 mark in the 2nd half. Entry pass draws a double, quick kick out, swing pass, shot fake, pass to Cupps wide open who sticks that 3. 

They didn't hesitate in that sequence it got the defense completely out of position and lead to a wide open shot. Was that because we had the 3 guards in or because those three (who happen to be guards) trusted each other and didn't hesitate? 

Trust that the ball will come back to you if you cut hard or get post position 

 

just curious….i wonder how many possessions passed the Hoosiers movie test ?

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, Kdug said:

You’re forgetting the biggest IU game of the weekend. Men’s soccer winning another big ten tournament title and playing their best right before the tourney.

That was the lone bright spot.

[IUFLA]

Always enjoy @The Daily Hoosier's game grades article...

 

[tdhoosier]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

I’d personally like to see Cupps in the starting lineup. Healthy debate who should start at the 4 but I think having Cupps start will help ratchet up the defensive intensity. Don’t allow teams to get hot and comfortable early, and hopefully create bad shots and turnovers that result in easy transition baskets and gain some confidence and momentum there. 

As others have mentioned, I would like to see what things look like without Ware/MR on the floor at the same time. Ill probably get flamed for this but I think I’m ok with pounding the ball in when you have those 2 in together because they can score easy baskets and cause foul troubles for smaller teams. I don’t like right now what we have to offer on the perimeter, so getting easy baskets/fouls and forcing teams to double should hopefully result in wide open shots for X/Gallo/Gunn/Cupps and hope they take advantage. 

I would like to see something like below. Maybe not exactly but rotate through the bench and don't do mass subs - a 4-5 player change is just setting the bench players up for failure. 

Start: Ware/Malik/Gallo/X/Cupps
1st Sub: Ware/Bako/Gallo/X/Cupps
2nd sub: Malik/Bako/Banks/Gunn/X
3rd sub: Sparks/Malik/Gunn/Gallo/Cupps 
*all starters get a rest.
*the bench get their opportunity to play, let's coaches see who's hot/keyed in
*and then back to the starting lineup, or play whoever is playing best

....you get the idea. Like how other college teams play. 😎

[Rev_AK]

Not time to hit the panic button just yet, but…

This is eerily similar to Archie-coached teams by being disjointed on offense and making really bad teams look like superstars.

The Buster Murdaugh look alike on Army had what will probably be his best game this season, ans was talking a lot of crap at Assembly Hall. Reminiscent of the Ft Wayne  debacles. 

I’m not overly concerned about MM at the moment, because I consider rather than being suspended, he was just given a really short leash? This is at least my hope. In the RMK days, it was called the “doghouse.”

We have been in this position before, and I think we all know that there are going to be some big-time losses coming up if things don’t turn around. 
Hopefully, by conference time, these guys will gel, but at the moment, yikes.

 

[BobSaccamanno]

13 hours ago, 5fouls said:

We LOSE this game tonight without Reneau's production.  But, we also lose this game if Reneau had that same production playing the 5 instead of the 4, which means Ware's playing time would have been reduced.  Are we really promoting putting a lineup out there that would lose the game because it's what we would prefer our team look like?

I personally think that Ware and Reneau can complement each other really well.  A tough, strong guy who is tough to stop with his back to the basket and a long, active fluid player who can face up.  I always have liked such combos.

I also like Peyton Sparks.  I just think he's getting his conditioning going coming off an injury.  

The problem is our roster is lopsided at the 4-5 spots.  I was strongly hoping to land another guard in the portal.  I suspect we got too picky. 

[13th&Jackson]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Always enjoy @The Daily Hoosier's game grades article...

 

Coaches always say they want to run and score in transition, but this roster isn’t built for it. The team is too slow to beat anyone down the court to the rim and we don’t have pull up three point shooters. Plus, in order to run, you have to rebound well, which they don’t.

If you’re serious about being a transition team, you build a roster like FL Atlantic with one post player surrounded by four guards who all shoot 35% or better from three. IU is the mirror image of that. 
 

 

[Hoosierdave]

I’d also just like to say it’s absolutely criminal that we couldn’t find another shooting guard in the 1000+ person transfer portal. 

Every mid major team we’ve played for like the past 3 years has 4+ guys on the floor who are capable and confident from knocking it down from any distance.

Last time I checked 3 points is more than 2!

[tdhoosier]

4 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I personally think that Ware and Reneau can complement each other really well.  A tough, strong guy who is tough to stop with his back to the basket and a long, active fluid player who can face up.  I always have liked such combos.

I also like Peyton Sparks.  I just think he's getting his conditioning going coming off an injury.  

The problem is our roster is lopsided at the 4-5 spots.  I was strongly hoping to land another guard in the portal.  I suspect we got too picky. 

It'd be cool if you could do trades in CBB. Trade one of our front court guys to a team that has the opposite problem as us...get a back court guy in return. 

[Drroogh]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Just rewatched Woody's post game, and one of the things he said was "we gotta move it, we gotta trust each other. I mean we catch the ball, and the first thing we think about is putting the ball down on the floor and making a play for myself."

 

 

I think one thing that bothers me a lot! Besides team play (stopped watching at halftime) is all of the ranting about the same things Coach calls out!! It’s as if some people only care about their thoughts and ignore or worse coaches???

[Common Sense]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

I’d also just like to say it’s absolutely criminal that we couldn’t find another shooting guard in the 1000+ person transfer portal. 

Every mid major team we’ve played for like the past 3 years has 4+ guys on the floor who are capable and confident from knocking it down from any distance.

Last time I checked 3 points is more than 2!

Just looked at our future opponent UConn to see how many they have shot in their two blowout victories.  They average 27-28 attempts through their first two games compared to our 12.  I think we even hit at a better percentage.  Kansas averages 26 attempts.  These two teams shoot almost twice as many as we do.  

[btownqb]

J Newton's injury hurt. Many believe he's an obvious upgrade over someone like Gunn. 

[Artesian_86]

12 minutes ago, btownqb said:

J Newton's injury hurt. Many believe he's an obvious upgrade over someone like Gunn. 

I kept looking at him on the bench and wondered if he is the missing part of this team progressing faster.....

It can only help. Is there ANY timetable on a possible come back?