IU / Illinois Post Game Thread

[IowaHoosierFan]

7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Actually I thought today the tone of this board has been pretty subdued today co.pared to other losses

[BGleas]

Really impressed with Leal today too. I think he earned regular rotation minutes. 

[94hoosier]

5 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Really impressed with Leal today too. I think he earned regular rotation minutes. 

Leal definitely earned minutes 

[KoB2011]

44 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Piling on includes stating the obvious ad nauseum- how many times can it be expressed that we don’t shoot the 3 well, that the roster construction needs improvement? That the focus of the offense doesn’t fit today’s game?

Getting behind the team would mean that posters would acknowledge the effort that these guys have shown. The improvement that guys like MR and TG have made. I shake my head when I read posts that suggest that there has been no player development. 

Finally, the pot shots at the coaching staff are unwarranted, imo. You starts the “It’s time to fire” thread, so not sure how to respond to you. The guy has been here 3 seasons . He is still coaching players from the previous regime. Improvement needs to happen, for sure. Three years and out is a recipe for disaster for the program. 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying. Every poster is unique but I’ve seen plenty of compliments of Malik and Mgabko in particular for their development as the season has gone on.

Yes, I did start the thread about firing Woodson. I’m happy to take on the “blame” for that, but when you’re trending towards one of the worst seasons in program history those type of threads tend to come up. I’d love for Woodson to make some adjustments and prove how stupid I was for making that thread - I’ve actually said that several times. I don’t think there’s a potshot in saying this isn’t good enough, it’s pretty dang direct. 

[5fouls]

3 hours ago, dgambill said:

Reneau is a bottomless pit. He is very talented but he doesn’t play team basketball…he has one goal…shoot the ball.

I think that's totally unfair to Malik,  Look at his Assist % below.  2nd on the team by a wide margin.  He scores the ball a lot because the offense plays through him.  Look at his Usage (also in the graphic below).

[John S]

His Ppg is 10 points above last year.  He and Ware are the two most consistent offensive contributors.   

[5fouls]

3 hours ago, IU_Realist said:

When was the last time we contended?  Quit using our dusty banners.  They are in a better place than IU basketball.  Indiana basketball is nowhere close to being that.  

As an IU fan, would you trade Illinois one of our banners to be ranked 10th in the country this season?

Yes, they are better than us this season.  But, we are, by far, the more accomplished program.  

 

[5fouls]

Field goal attempts per 40 minutes.  Malik is only a 'black-hole' to some of you because we are losing.  

'Malik Reneau ('23-'24) - 15.5

T. Jackson-Davis ('22-'23) - 16.3

A. Henderson ('94-'95) - 17.4

K. Benson ('76-'77) - 16.7

 

Edited January 28 by 5fouls

[IowaHoosierFan]

23 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Field goal attempts per 40 minutes.  Malik is only a 'black-hole' to some of you because we are losing.  

'Malik Reneau ('23-'24) - 15.5

T. Jackson-Davis ('22-'23) - 16.3

A. Henderson ('94-'95) - 17.4

K. Benson ('76-'77) - 16.7

 

I think watching MR force his way through double and triple teams (the eye test) is where everyone gets the thought he is a black hole.  To become a great player with NBA potential, the court vision needs to come.  The IQ of when to force the shot and when to kick it out to a ready shooter on the perimeter or a cutter to the basket. (The rest of the team needs to help here also and be moving, cutting or ready for the kick when MR is doubled or tripled).  He also needs to rebound and defend better, but he and Ware are by far our best and most productive offensive weapons.  Without either of those 2, i doubt we have more than a couple wins on the season.  I give credit where credit is due.  I just think people see how special he could be with some adjustments to his game.  

[5fouls]

4 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I think watching MR force his way through double and triple teams (the eye test) is where everyone gets the thought he is a black hole.  To become a great player with NBA potential, the court vision needs to come.  The IQ of when to force the shot and when to kick it out to a ready shooter on the perimeter or a cutter to the basket. (The rest of the team needs to help here also and be moving, cutting or ready for the kick when MR is doubled or tripled).  He also needs to rebound and defend better, but he and Ware are by far our best and most productive offensive weapons.  Without either of those 2, i doubt we have more than a couple wins on the season.  I give credit where credit is due.  I just think people see how special he could be with some adjustments to his game.  

He's 2nd in Assist percentage on the team, right behind Galloway.  His Assist % is more than twice as high than Cupps, who is a point guard.  He does find players in scoring percentage.  If he had Steve Alford to throw it out to, he would be even better.

[IUCrazy2]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Actually I thought today the tone of this board has been pretty subdued today co.pared to other losses

Because the year is already over so the losses don't matter and we all know Woodson is going to be here again next year.  This game in the past would have made me mad, now it is like "whatever".  Winning would have been the surprise.

[IowaHoosierFan]

46 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

He's 2nd in Assist percentage on the team, right behind Galloway.  His Assist % is more than twice as high than Cupps, who is a point guard.  He does find players in scoring percentage.  If he had Steve Alford to throw it out to, he would be even better.

was just trying to rationalize why other might think that.  I will stop replying to this. 

[jojo123]

The biggest problem with this team is defense. And if you have a problem with defense there is a problem with your team. Is defense a skill? Quick feet helps. Defense is effort, communication and knowing what you’re trying to accomplish and having all five players working together to accomplish that goal. We have a team problem. Being this late in the season it’s not looking good. Illinois missed multiple wide open threes yesterday. I really don’t think our defense was much better yesterday. We’ll see? 

[ForHumanity]

IU brand? The side shows are plentiful.

Teams are laughing at us.

Seems every game we give out more material.

Need different warmups until we become a basketball team again.

Get your peanuts...

[NCHoosier32]

14 hours ago, ForHumanity said:

He is still trying to find himself.

trying to get over the hump

[jojo123]

1 minute ago, NCHoosier32 said:

trying to get over the hump

He needs to check his shoes. His shirt. The mirror. If he can’t locate anything there, throw spaghettini? 

[dgambill]

10 hours ago, Hippopotamo said:

To me, it kind of seems like Woodson underestimated the shooting disparity between the NBA and college basketball. It’s almost like he took for granted how good NBA players at shooting 3s and decided to recruit athletes who can play his defensive scheme and neglected dudes who are elite at putting the ball in the basket. I think he’s earned a 4th season but this just has to start looking better. We need a modern offense that gives these guys a chance to win each night. 

We were extremely lucky and should give Woody credit for landing JHS last year. We need high basketball IQ players….very seldom do they come at elite athleticism/pro ready body as well.  The difference in our season from last to this year is that exact difference maker.
 

You could probably count on 1 hand how many 6’0/6’1 guards could make it in the nba without some elite athleticism…in college…it’s not a problem. Your team won’t get exposed because of how few teams have 4 much less 5 guys that are offensively skilled enough to attack a team with a few unathletic guys. The skill level and difference from college basketball to the nba is far wider than I think most think. Our issue is our backcourt is one of the worst not just in the B1G but all of college basketball. We aren’t full of smart basketball players, full of shooters, nor even with elite playmaking skills. Gabe Cupps will need to take a huge step up next year and we will need an influx of shooting and smart players because we aren’t landing another JHS on the recruiting trail as we missed on our 24 guards….so some sharpe shooting portal guys are a must.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, jojo123 said:

The biggest problem with this team is defense. And if you have a problem with defense there is a problem with your team. Is defense a skill? Quick feet helps. Defense is effort, communication and knowing what you’re trying to accomplish and having all five players working together to accomplish that goal. We have a team problem. Being this late in the season it’s not looking good. Illinois missed multiple wide open threes yesterday. I really don’t think our defense was much better yesterday. We’ll see? 

Exactly…Biggest problem with the team is communication. They don’t talk on defense and they don’t talk on offense…this team doesn’t talk!!! Someone said it 3-4 games in the season. They were at the game and they said NOBODY was talking…you can’t play defense unconnected. This team has no leadership….without vocal leadership on the defensive end we will be a bad team…you can have good stretches but without that…hard to sustain good play for 40 minutes. 
 

Shooting is also a huge problem…but we’ve survived without elite shooting for a decade…we weren’t great shooters last year either but we were connected on defense last year…we talked.

Edited January 28 by dgambill

[dgambill]

8 hours ago, 5fouls said:

He's 2nd in Assist percentage on the team, right behind Galloway.  His Assist % is more than twice as high than Cupps, who is a point guard.  He does find players in scoring percentage.  If he had Steve Alford to throw it out to, he would be even better.

Because no one gets assist when they throw the ball to Reneau…you don’t get an assist when the guy pounds the ball 5-6 times on the floor backing and lowering his shoulder until he shoots. An assist is credited when the pass leads directly to a made shot or attempt. Malik gets assist because people are all wide open to shoot on the rare times he does pass it out. When he gets it the offense stops moving…it actually stops and because a 1-1 show. He is our best 1-1 player for sure…and I’m not saying he isn’t effective scorer but this is the same offense as with Trayce last year…difference…Trayce passed out of those doubles a bunch more. Trayce is in the nba because he also plays defense but his passing is why GS took him. Reneau is a plodder, stands straight up on defense, has no lateral quickness and doesn’t pass unless is forced to.  For a few games he was hitting Ware flashing to the hoop and that was our best stretch.

[5fouls]

7 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Because no one gets assist when they throw the ball to Reneau…you don’t get an assist when the guy pounds the ball 5-6 times on the floor backing and lowering his shoulder until he shoots. An assist is credited when the pass leads directly to a made shot or attempt. Malik gets assist because people are all wide open to shoot on the rare times he does pass it out. When he gets it the offense stops moving…it actually stops and because a 1-1 show. He is our best 1-1 player for sure…and I’m not saying he isn’t effective scorer but this is the same offense as with Trayce last year…difference…Trayce passed out of those doubles a bunch more. Trayce is in the nba because he also plays defense but his passing is why GS took him. Reneau is a plodder, stands straight up on defense, has no lateral quickness and doesn’t pass unless is forced to.  For a few games he was hitting Ware flashing to the hoop and that was our best stretch.

I'll take a 7-second backdown for 2 from Reneau over a air-balled 3 attempt from Johnson, a fade away 2 attempt from Gunn, or Cupps resetting and taking 15 more seconds off the clock resulting in a rushed shot from anyone with 1-2 seconds left.

The fact is, other than Mgbako, there is no one he can throw it to that can hit a 3.  And with MM, it has to be a wide open attempt.  Other teams know that, and MM gets very few clean looks.

Fix the rest of the team first before we overly criticize the only reliable offensive weapon we have.

[tdhoosier]

The loss is tough because we played pretty well, but with the way we play offense, there’s just no room for error. We basically have to play lights out defense (which we can’t) or just hope that our opponents are going to have a bad shooting night. 

There was a point in the game when Hummel asked “What will happen first? Will IU attempt their first 3 or will IL make their first 3?” It ended up being the latter. The styles between the 2 teams are drastically different. IL will kept shooting until they start making some and erased an 8 point deficit in like 2 minutes. They had the confidence to hit clutch shots at the end of the game. We got afraid to shoot it and didn’t make a 3 the rest of the game. 

It’s been said to death, but I really wish we could run some action for our shooters. I know many say (including myself) that it’s a personnel issue, but Mgbako can shoot, Gallo has been shooting better, Gunn can get hot, Cupps can shoot. Malik. Ware. 

If we create a Venn diagram of our shooting woes, I have to ask: how much of it is personnel? How much of it is the system not creating good looks for shooters and/or inspiring confidence in shooters (assuming that shooting is usually option b).

I posted the below stats on another thread. Wouldn’t we like to have this guy on our team? Add him to our personnel?

….We did have this guy on our team. His name is Tamar Bates. Did he really get that much better at shooting or is he just in a system that is more beneficial to shooters? If you’re a shooter in the portal, is this something that crosses your mind and is this why we struck out last Spring on good shooters? If we plug McNeely into this roster would it really make that much of a difference?

I know I’m running into that ‘chicken or the egg’ debate again, but this is the stuff that crosses my mind. 

[Hoosierinbham]

10 hours ago, BGleas said:

Really impressed with Leal today too. I think he earned regular rotation minutes. 

The defense really improved when he was in the game. Illinois was isolating Cupps and taking advantage of him. Leal is taller, stronger, and much more experienced.  He can switch and not put us in a disadvantage.  Now he just needs to take and hit a couple 3s!

[dgambill]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll take a 7-second backdown for 2 from Reneau over a air-balled 3 attempt from Johnson, a fade away 2 attempt from Gunn, or Cupps resetting and taking 15 more seconds off the clock resulting in a rushed shot from anyone with 1-2 seconds left.

The fact is, other than Mgbako, there is no one he can throw it to that can hit a 3.  And with MM, it has to be a wide open attempt.  Other teams know that, and MM gets very few clean looks.

Fix the rest of the team first before we overly criticize the only reliable offensive weapon we have.

Why does it have to be a 3? When the defense is out of position when you swing it you get a clean drive, a 2nd pass/swing for a better shot, more wide open layups. Heck even more cleaner looks for Reneau on re enteries.
 

You’re just being simplistic with your argument because it fits your narrative but the fact is when the ball moves…the defense moves…gets out of position and that leads to better looks. Win or lose…that’s a better result for us. Sharing the ball and trusting in your teammates will win more games than just letting your best player go 1-1 for 40 mins. After all Malik can’t take all the shots (nor does he). He gets better looks, less double teams when he actually shares it…and is more effective. 
 

This is the job of the coach to point out to him..So this isn’t me just bashing the guy…just pointing out that offensive game plan is not inductive to winning basketball. After all we got better when Trayce figured out how to pass out of those doubles last year…Malik needs to learn it too. Again this isn’t pointed at Malik…it’s at the game plan.  The shots will fall. We just need to take more of those wide open looks to grow the confidence. Gunn, Mgbako, Cupps, Galloway, even Leal can knock down shots when they are squared up with a free look….and when the defense over closes out…they can drive and make even easier plays. We are playing losing basketball…it shows with our record…how about trusting your teammates to make the right play and 🤷‍♂️ maybe we “win”.

[5fouls]

5 minutes ago, dgambill said:

You’re just being simplistic with your argument because it fits your narrative 

You not agree with me?  Me beat you senseless.

[BobSaccamanno]

I like Reneau a lot.  He’s pretty brilliant scoring in the post.  He’s got rare talent in that respect.  Having said that, I do think he makes up his mind that he’s going to shoot sometimes and turns off reading the defense.   That shows up in rebounding too.  Yes he got 7 yesterday, but you have to anticipate, read angles, block out.   I think he can still get a lot better by seeing the floor better and reading/anticipating.