Coronavirus

[mrflynn03]

13 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Because of politicians just love pissing off their constituents? And they love losing money in their retirement accounts by shutting down the economy. Look, I think for the most part many politicians are as slimy as you. But they are slimy because of self preservation. This is the exact opposite of self preservation. The motive doesn’t add up IMO. 

Regarding deaths, it seems pretty deadly to me. Did you see this interactive graph last week relating COVID19 deaths to other diseases? 

So I'm slimy because I choose to believe the experts that say having a respiratory disease circulating the population for months is irresponsible and our actions likely counterproductive?

It's not that I dont care about the people suffering from this, but I also am concerned for the 10's of millions who's livelihoods are disrupted or destroyed forever.  It's called cost/benefit analysis.

[Joe_Hoopsier]

3 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

So I'm slimy because I choose to believe the experts that say having a respiratory disease circulating the population for months is irresponsible and our actions likely counterproductive?

It's not that I dont care about the people suffering from this, but I also am concerned for the 10's of millions who's livelihoods are disrupted or destroyed forever.  It's called cost/benefit analysis.

I don't think that he was saying you are slimy, he thinks Politicians are as slimy as you think they are. But I could be wrong.

 

[IUFLA]

21 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Because of politicians just love pissing off their constituents? And they love losing money in their retirement accounts by shutting down the economy. Look, I think for the most part many politicians are as slimy as you. But they are slimy because of self preservation. This is the exact opposite of self preservation. The motive doesn’t add up IMO. 

Regarding deaths, it seems pretty deadly to me. Did you see this interactive graph last week relating COVID19 deaths to other diseases? 

2 things about the graph...

1. As COVID-19 is being ascribed as cause of death, regardless of whether the person had any of the other underlying conditions on the graph, it's of course going to skew the numbers

2. We will eventually have a vaccine for COVID-19. A lot of the others have no known cure. Cherry picking a disease as the number 1 cause of death over such a short period of time only contributes to scare-mongering...

[Lostin76]

3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Instead of wringing our hands over this, let's act as Americans always have...come together despite our differences and defeat this thing...do any little thing you can to help. 

Give blood if you can...

Volunteer if you can...

Help your neighbors if they need it...

Support our first responders and medical professionals...

Finger pointing serves no purpose at this point, beyond the obvious political opportunism I posted about earlier...

It's so easy for us to spend time blaming governors and the federal government after the fact to score political points. It's also not that helpful. This is a good reminder.

There will be plenty of time after this is all over to see what a catastrophic failure this was on so many levels, both governmental and societal.

Now is a good time to take care of ourselves and each other. It's easy for me to get annoyed at a post by @mrflynn03 that I may disagree with, but I also have to realize that I'm sitting at home safe and still receiving a paycheck (my wife is too), while his wife is forced to stop working. We are all coming at this from different directions and being affected differently b/c of our own situations and geographic locations.

 

 

[tdhoosier]

17 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I don't think we can even remotely attach an accurate mortality rate to this.  The fact that many people who have the virus never show symptoms or have very minor symptoms separates it from the flu.  You know when you have the flu, so it is much easier to attach numbers to it/  That's not the case here.

As far as the U.S., and, for that matter, the world's reaction to the virus, we need to back the blame game up just a little bit.  In hindsight, was it slower than it needed to be?  Yes.  That's an easy call in hindsight.  But, when you have China doing everything possible to cover this up, and WHO making statements in mid to late January that there is no evidence of human to human transmission, what exactly should we expect? 

It's pretty doggone hard to make the 'right' decisions when 90% of the information you need is being withheld.  Or, even worse, you're given false and misleading information.    

 

I completely understand that as more numbers come in the actual death rate is going to change. Right now a death rate of 1% seems to be the general consensus, so whether it goes up to 1.5% or down to .7%, either way it's pretty deadly. Look, we had it killing 10 people/day in the third week of March and by April 7th it surpassed Heart Disease as the number 1 cause of death on April 7th when it killed over 1,800 people and it's been climbing since. And that's with a majority of deaths coming from just one city.  I agree we can't be 100% accurate right now when stating the actual death rate. But when people say it's not as deadly as we think when comparing it to the seasonal flu or other 'common viruses', and then use that bit of inaccurate info to propagate a conspiracy theory about population control then I don't agree with their general premise.

[5fouls]

2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I completely understand that as more numbers come in the actual death rate is going to change. Right now a death rate of 1% seems to be the general consensus, so whether it goes up to 1.5% or down to .7%, either way it's pretty deadly. Look, we had it killing 10 people/day in the third week of March and by April 7th it surpassed Heart Disease as the number 1 cause of death on April 7th when it killed over 1,800 people and it's been climbing since. And that's with a majority of deaths coming from just one city.  I agree we can't be 100% accurate right now when stating the actual death rate. But when people say it's not as deadly as we think when comparing it to the seasonal flu or other 'common viruses', and then use that bit of inaccurate info to propagate a conspiracy theory about population control then I don't agree with their general premise.

I don't think it's population control either.  But, I do get tired of people trying to criticize how the U.S. responded.  Every country in the world was delayed in responding because of how China tried to cover this up.  That's a fact.

[tdhoosier]

18 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I don't think it's population control either.  But, I do get tired of people trying to criticize how the U.S. responded.  Every country in the world was delayed in responding because of how China tried to cover this up.  That's a fact.

I'm just saying it's these type of conspiracy theories that divert our attention away from are ability to be critical. I hear everybody about Monday Morning quarterbacking. Many countries had their failure and there's plenty of blame to go around. But the reason for those Monday morning film sessions are learn from mistakes. If we can't honestly analyze and learn from our failures we will have a hard time digging our way out of this. 

Edit: the conspiracies I'm referring to are population control and other ones floating around. I'm not disagreeing on China. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by tdhoosier

[tdhoosier]

40 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

So I'm slimy because I choose to believe the experts that say having a respiratory disease circulating the population for months is irresponsible and our actions likely counterproductive?

It's not that I dont care about the people suffering from this, but I also am concerned for the 10's of millions who's livelihoods are disrupted or destroyed forever.  It's called cost/benefit analysis.

Not calling you slimy, but now when I re-read I understand how you came to that conclusion. My apologies for not being clearer.

Let me retry that sentence: I think, as you probably do, most politicians are slimy.   .....Not that you they are 'as slimy as you". 

Look, I will disagree with you but won't result to name calling. Really did not intend for it to come across that way. 

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

This virus is different from other virus in the same way a German Shepard is different from a Poodle. They’re both dogs, they both share the same characteristics, they both have similar behavior traits, but they’re different types of dogs. 

COVID19 and the flu are fundamentally the same because they are both viruses; they spread similarly and both exhibit the same symptoms. I don’t see that anybody is disputing this. COVID19 is different because it’s 2x more contagious than the flu and the symptoms are delayed. That fact that people unknowingly spread it is it’s most dangerous trait.

And we are experiencing higher mortality rates than the flu. It’s 10x more deadly. 

It didn’t have to be this way. If our elected officials and federal agencies acted on this back in January when they were getting numerous warnings; the social distancing wouldn’t have to be on this scale. If they weren’t ‘blind’ to the virus and had a way to test/track it sooner, then they could have shut specific cities where clusters were present, rather than the whole country. They had 2 months to prepare, but didn’t act until it was too late. This is going to go down in history as one of the most epic failures. Nothing like a good conspiracy theory about ‘population control’ to distract us from this very fact. 

I'm seeing studies showing mortality might be around 0.37%- akin to a bad flu and that up to 50% of Chicagoans might already have antibodies.

https://www.tagesschau.de/regional/nordrheinwestfalen/corona-studie-heinsberg-101.html

[rico]

7 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I'm just saying it's these type of conspiracy theories that divert our attention away from are ability to be critical. I hear everybody about Monday Morning quarterbacking. Many countries had their failure and there's plenty of blame to go around. But the reason for those Monday morning film sessions are learn from mistakes. If we can't honestly analyze and learn from our failures we will have a hard time digging our way out of this. 

Oh I have learned my lesson.  Don't trust China or the W.H.O.

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

It didn’t have to be this way. If our elected officials and federal agencies acted on this back in January when they were getting numerous warnings; the social distancing wouldn’t have to be on this scale.

There's a huge difference between finger-pointing and using historical context and data for future reference.

Sorry if I'm wrong on this, but your comment above smacks of the former...

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

It didn’t have to be this way. If our elected officials and federal agencies acted on this back in January when they were getting numerous warnings; the social distancing wouldn’t have to be on this scale. If they weren’t ‘blind’ to the virus and had a way to test/track it sooner, then they could have shut specific cities where clusters were present, rather than the whole country. They had 2 months to prepare, but didn’t act until it was too late. This is going to go down in history as one of the most epic failures. Nothing like a good conspiracy theory about ‘population control’ to distract us from this very fact. 

Here is an alternate viewpoint- https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/04/12/fact-check-new-york-times-claims-trump-could-have-seen-what-was-coming-on-coronavirus/

Dr. Anthony Fauci cautioned Jan. 21 that while we should “take it seriously,” the virus was “not a major threat to the people of the United States, and this is not something that the citizens of the United States right now should be worried about.”

I can't fault the federal response. The implementation has been shoddy in areas. My bigger concern is seeing how various local leaders from Mayors to Governors have handled it. Banning hydroxychloroquine? 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Reacher

[Lostin76]

2 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Here is an alternate viewpoint- https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/04/12/fact-check-new-york-times-claims-trump-could-have-seen-what-was-coming-on-coronavirus/

Dr. Anthony Fauci cautioned Jan. 21 that while we should “take it seriously,” the virus was “not a major threat to the people of the United States, and this is not something that the citizens of the United States right now should be worried about.”

I can't fault the federal response. The implementation has been shoddy in areas. My bigger concern is seeing how various local leaders from Mayors to Governors have handled it. Banning hydroxychloroquine? 

A second clinical trial has now been stopped early b/c of cardiac deaths from hydroxychloroquine.

Also this from a doctor: "Patients with lupus, arthritis, other conditions are *already* on hydroxychloroquine. And we are diagnosing them with covid19 LEFT AND RIGHT "

[5fouls]

4 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Banning hydroxychloroquine? 

Is/Was 100% political and irresponsible beyond belief. 

Even if it only saves 1 in 10 that you give it to.  As long as it is not harming the other 9 (and absolutely nothing in the 70 years it's been in use suggests it would), then saving that 1 life makes it worthwhile. 

Throw in the fact that some tried to spread a false rumor that there would not be enough supply for those who needed it for lupus or arthritis,  and it's evident that some are not acting on the interest of saving lives.  And, that's disgusting.

 

 

[5fouls]

10 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

A second clinical trial has now been stopped early b/c of cardiac deaths from hydroxychloroquine.

Also this from a doctor: "Patients with lupus, arthritis, other conditions are *already* on hydroxychloroquine. And we are diagnosing them with covid19 LEFT AND RIGHT "

Is the trial you are referencing the one in Brazil where they gave the patients higher than recommended dosage?  Maybe, just maybe, if they had stuck within the guidelines of drug, the people would have lived.  Don't blame the drug when it's misused.

In fact, according to the story, it's not even the same drug.  The New York Times is just presenting it that way.  It's a closely related drug, chloroquine without the 'hydroxy'.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html

Edited April 13, 2020 by 5fouls

[tdhoosier]

3 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

 

Throw in the fact that some tried to spread a false rumor that there would not be enough supply for those who needed it for lupus or arthritis,  and it's evident that some are not acting on the interest of saving lives.  And, that's disgusting.

 

 

My friend is a pharmacist in TN and I heard directly from him that he was having a hard time securing chlorquine for his patients. It wasn't a rumor in his particular case. 

[Lostin76]

Just now, 5fouls said:

Is the trial you are referencing the one in Brazil where they gave the patients higher than recommended dosage?  Maybe, just maybe, if they had stuck within the guidelines of drug, the people would have lived.  Don't blame the drug when it's misused.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html

That's one of them. They had two dosage levels. And I'm not blaming a drug or anything. I'm also not desperately clinging to a questionable treatment. I sincerely hope it can offer relief, but not at the expense of unnecessary death. I think I've mentioned that our department is doing a big clinical trial with it as a prophylaxis for exposed cases. We want it to work, but there is not enough data. And the real data we have so far? It's not great. 

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, Lostin76 said:

That's one of them. They had two dosage levels. And I'm not blaming a drug or anything. I'm also not desperately clinging to a questionable treatment. I sincerely hope it can offer relief, but not at the expense of unnecessary death. I think I've mentioned that our department is doing a big clinical trial with it as a prophylaxis for exposed cases. We want it to work, but there is not enough data. And the real data we have so far? It's not great. 

Roughly half the study participants were given a dose of 450 milligrams of chloroquine twice daily for five days, while the rest were prescribed a higher dose of 600 milligrams for 10 days. Within three days, researchers started noticing heart arrhythmias in patients taking the higher dose. By the sixth day of treatment, 11 patients had died, leading to an immediate end to the high-dose segment of the trial.

[Seeking6]

One positive I just read about this quarantine. Yosemite and other national parks are being taken over again by animals. LA Times (pay article) said Bear population has quadrupled. Silver lining I guess. 

[Lostin76]

2 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

One positive I just read about this quarantine. Yosemite and other national parks are being taken over again by animals. LA Times (pay article) said Bear population has quadrupled. Silver lining I guess. 

Goats in Welsh Town Running Free

[Reacher]

35 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

A second clinical trial has now been stopped early b/c of cardiac deaths from hydroxychloroquine.

Also this from a doctor: "Patients with lupus, arthritis, other conditions are *already* on hydroxychloroquine. And we are diagnosing them with covid19 LEFT AND RIGHT "

What about those that have been helped? Lots of stories about those people. I'm just saying a Dr shouldn't be prevented from using it.

[Reacher]

I've said before there will be consequences for China.

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/3079126/japan-pay-firms-leave-china-relocate-production-elsewhere-part

[tdhoosier]

6 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

One positive I just read about this quarantine. Yosemite and other national parks are being taken over again by animals. LA Times (pay article) said Bear population has quadrupled. Silver lining I guess. 

I'm not ready to rehash the whole chloroquine debate, but in news related to this we are seeing the mobilization of the global scientific community like we never have before. Many have stopped what they were doing and using their expertise to look for a cure. I just read about an anti-parasitic drug called Ivermectin; it has shown to stop COVID19 in its tracks within 24-48 hours. Of course this was done in lab settings and they need to test in humans. Who knows if it will work but while most of the noise is about chloroquine, there are other promising trials going on. And because of this huge mobilization it's very possible treatments for other viruses may be found on accident. It's very unlikely but wouldn't it be crazy if all of this research accidentally stumbles on better treatments for the common cold or seasonal flu? ...Just something positive to think about. 

[5fouls]

38 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

My friend is a pharmacist in TN and I heard directly from him that he was having a hard time securing chlorquine for his patients. It wasn't a rumor in his particular case. 

I believe it.  Several factors could be involved, not just an actual shortage of the drug.  

[Muckraker]

22 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

One positive I just read about this quarantine. Yosemite and other national parks are being taken over again by animals. LA Times (pay article) said Bear population has quadrupled. Silver lining I guess. 

Well, there's a good example of the overall disinformation situation. It is impossible for the population of a large mammal like bears to quadruple in 2 or 3 months. Bears have a gestation period similar to humans.