kyhoosier29 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 2 hours ago, IUFLA said: I get it... I'm frustrated too... I just don't give up very easily, and it seems some already have... Because we’re used to this story, disappointment! But people on this forum aren’t the people you should care about giving up. You should be angry at the players on the court and the coaching staff who appear to have given up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 6 hours ago, kyhoosier29 said: Because we’re used to this story, disappointment! But people on this forum aren’t the people you should care about giving up. You should be angry at the players on the court and the coaching staff who appear to have given up. 5th year senior. I honestly don't know where you point the finger of blame. Probably at everyone at this point. The players for appearing to not take this very seriously and in this case, the coaching staff who continues to play this level of effort because "these guys give us the best chance to win." I am one of the major ones people were complaining about last night, to the point of directly quoting me and making up what I was saying with that direct quote. Whatever, I will deal. If you are someone who thinks what is up above will get fixed when X and Race return, ok I guess. Ibprefer to believe that what is happening should not be happening no matter who is on the court. I think that some of the public, "woe is me" statements from Woodson are apparently being taken to heart by the players because I have no other explanation for how a still pretty talented team can pack it in like this. Finally, if you are going to be a player arguing with fans online who are complaining about play, you CANNOT be this guy in the next game. Just can't. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: 5th year senior. I honestly don't know where you point the finger of blame. Probably at everyone at this point. The players for appearing to not take this very seriously and in this case, the coaching staff who continues to play this level of effort because "these guys give us the best chance to win." I am one of the major ones people were complaining about last night, to the point of directly quoting me and making up what I was saying with that direct quote. Whatever, I will deal. If you are someone who thinks what is up above will get fixed when X and Race return, ok I guess. Ibprefer to believe that what is happening should not be happening no matter who is on the court. I think that some of the public, "woe is me" statements from Woodson are apparently being taken to heart by the players because I have no other explanation for how a still pretty talented team can pack it in like this. Finally, if you are going to be a player arguing with fans online who are complaining about play, you CANNOT be this guy in the next game. Just can't. I envisioned the film session review of this when Knight was coach. I then envisioned a player running bleachers and sitting at the end of the bench the next game. Edited January 13, 2023 by 5fouls 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 7 hours ago, kyhoosier29 said: Because we’re used to this story, disappointment! But people on this forum aren’t the people you should care about giving up. You should be angry at the players on the court and the coaching staff who appear to have given up. I don't care if some fans give up, it was simply a statement of fact. It's their right...but it does reek of frontrunning to me... It's the very definition in fact... And I don't get "angry" about any of this. Do I get frustrated? Yup... Angry? No... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 20 hours ago, BGleas said: My two cents is that he is not handling the post-up double well. He never really has. We really don't take any advantage when he gets double teamed. He's slow to read it and often reads it incorrectly. He's had several passing turnovers out of the double team recently. I think we do run the offense through him too much...Seems these guys have it ground into their heads Trayce HAS to get a touch every trip... My other concern is Tamar...Look at his splits home vs away/neutral... And JHS Look through any of our guys splits, and you can see that experince on the road is a big factor in evening those out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I think we do run the offense through him too much...Seems these guys have it ground into their heads Trayce HAS to get a touch every trip... My other concern is Tamar...Look at his splits home vs away/neutral... And JHS Look through any of our guys splits, and you can see that experince on the road is a big factor in evening those out... They actually are younger guys, you can actually cut them some slack for being young. I expect turnovers and mistakes on trying to do too much from JHS. He had the role of running the team thrust on him. Yogi Ferrell was a hell of a PG and he had several occasions in his first few years where you thought, "WTF was that Yogi?" You lived with it because he was young and bigger picture, you could see the potential and were just looking at growing pains. No, my major issues would be with the juniors and seniors. When you lose some guys I expect Geronimo, Kopp, and Galloway to step it up. If they see guys hanging their heads, tell them to knock it off and get back in the game. XJ and Race can be "coaching" and encouraging on the sideline. We have about as veteran of a team as you see in college these days, a team that has seen adversity, and the way they have responded (so far) is beyond disappointing. I thought and do think this is a better team with XJ and Race. However, we have been dealt a hand where we need to deal without them. We aren't winning the BIG, that is clear. We may be able to make noise in the tournament with them back but that is all a moot point if we don't stop the bleeding. What we have seen the past 7 games isn't going to get it done in this league. X and Race returning doesn't mean anything right now. It is completely inconsequential to our season at the moment because by the time they get back, the decision of what our post season possibilities are (if there are any), will likely have already been decided (barring absolute perfection when they get back). We have Wisconsin at home tomorrow. It is frankly a must win game. It is at home, we cannot afford to drop to 1-5. Edited January 13, 2023 by IUCrazy2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: I envisioned the film session review of this when Knight was coach. I then envisioned a player running bleachers and sitting at the end of the bench the next game. Evidently, Woody doesn't believe in the doghouse approach. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 I can only speak for myself, but I’m not ‘giving up’ on Woody or this team. I don’t want him to be fired. I don’t think anybody wants this. Besides the feeling of frustration, what I am is afraid. I’m afraid that this early into Woody’s tenure is that the performance is so bad that the questions are already starting. I don’t want to go through a coaching search again. I don’t want to have to reset everything and turnover the roster. Woody is one of our own and I want him to retire here. We are a smart fan base though. And we know what bad basketball looks like. We could be playing good basketball, still lose, and I wouldn’t be as upset. If this was the case I could blame those losses on injuries. But what I can not do is blame bad basketball on injuries. I can’t blame over-helping on injuries. I can’t blame leaving Geronimo in the game for 4 minutes too long when he was essentially responsible for every point given up, on injuries. I can’t blame missing the front end of a 1 and 1 again and again on injuries. I can’t blame a one dimensional offense on injuries (because it’s still one dimensional without injuries). I can’t blame not finding a guy to box out on injuries. What I want? I just want to see progress. I want to see that adjustments are being made. “Failure is only failing if you aren’t learning from your mistakes.” So learn and then adapt. I see virtually no adaptation (only infrequent, short lived glimpses of adaption). More of the same, given the fact that we are under-manned, is what is concerning. Not the fact that we are under-manned. I heard a quote the other day that’s stuck with me this week: “You are not a victim of your circumstances, you are a product of your choices”. Given Woody’s comments lately, I’m not sure that he or the team are living by this message. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostin76 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 This is my least favorite part of an IU basketball season. Starts getting difficult and the losses come, which is a bummer, but tolerable. What’s tough is wading through all of the FIRE THE COACH posts and threads, when we’ve barley started the conference season. Doesn’t matter who the coach is, the behavior is the same and predictable. I love talking and reading about IU basketball, but I’ll be avoiding the IU basketball section of the forum after losses from here on out. I’d rather talk politics with @Reacher than read through all this drama. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: No, my major issues would be with the juniors and seniors. When you lose some guys I expect Geronimo, Kopp, and Galloway to step it up. I don't know where the disconnect is coming here...I think that's a reasonable expectation... What I don't think is reasonable is finding a 5 second clip and indicting a whole tream and coach over it...What I don't think is reasonable is taking a 3rd hand quote and saying Woody's not holding people accoutable... None of us...not ONE, are at practice every day. We don't know if Coach Woodson punishes players or not. We don't know conversations he has with them at all. We don't know what the assistant coaches do at all...Yet somehow from our recliners, we can call for Coach Woodson to be fired. You know, these kids are human. They get pissed about unwarranted crticism just like you or I would. As I've said many times, if it's presented thoughtfully and backed up by evidence, hey, I'm good with it...And I'm sure they would be too... Coach Woodson has said many times this was the only college coaching job he would have ever taken. He came here to lead us back to what we once were. I appreciate that.And I certainly don't think he deserves some of the barbs like "lazy" without solid proof... The arm flinging anguish peppered with half truths and in some cases outright lies isn't going to stand with me. I'll call it out when I see it...And I've seen too much of it since the end of the Penn State game... Edited January 13, 2023 by IUFLA 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 Thought this article was interesting and relevant to the conversation... "Wahl can defend all five positions and, as veteran Spartans coach Tom Izzo pointed out, is UW’s glue guy. Michigan State (12-4, 4-1) made some big plays down the stretch and deserved this win, but it’s fair to wonder if the outcome would have been different with a healthy Wahl in the lineup. “I like Greg’s team,” Izzo said. “They’re going to be really good, but they’ve got to have all their bodies.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: We are a smart fan base though. And we know what bad basketball looks like. With a caveat... None of us know more than a guy who has played both college and pro basketball, and coached in the NBA for 3 decades... I'm quite sure he knows what bad basketball looks like as well... Edited January 13, 2023 by IUFLA 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier4Life53 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Thought this article was interesting and relevant to the conversation... "Wahl can defend all five positions and, as veteran Spartans coach Tom Izzo pointed out, is UW’s glue guy. Michigan State (12-4, 4-1) made some big plays down the stretch and deserved this win, but it’s fair to wonder if the outcome would have been different with a healthy Wahl in the lineup. “I like Greg’s team,” Izzo said. “They’re going to be really good, but they’ve got to have all their bodies.” Sound familiar? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: With a caveat... None of us know more than a guy who has played both college and pro basketball, and coached in the NBA for 3 decades... I'm quite sure he knows what bad basketball looks like as well... I’m not sure anybody is saying that they know more than Mike Woodson. At least I’m not. You know more about air traffic control, but if 2 planes are landing on the same run way at the same time, I can observe that it’s not a good thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 Basketball is a fun & simple game. All of us here are sports nuts. We may not be the coach but that doesn’t mean we can’t have an opinion. Right now, IU men’s team stinks. From this board to the next, to twitter to ESPN, to BTN to other teams fan boards. The entire sports landscape can see it. Blame it on the rain if you want to. Complaining here isn’t causing it. It’s what fans do on a message board when their team stinks. No different than the praise the team will get when they win. Have a good day ladies and gentlemen. It’s Friday! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 1 minute ago, tdhoosier said: I’m not sure anybody is saying that they know more than Mike Woodson. At least I’m not. You know more about air traffic control, but if 2 planes are landing on the same run way at the same time, I can observe that it’s not a good thing. You can't compare something that's as readily obvious as your 2 plane scenario to something as subjective as evaluating the play of a D1 player...If you noticed two planes landing on a runway before I did, I should never work traffic again... But I'm glad you brought that up... I once had a NAS engineer stand behind me and watch me work traffic...When I got out of position, he said, "Didn't look that hard." Now this is a guy I liked and respected, and is still one of the smartest people I know...But I told him, "until YOU are the one talking to the airplanes, you don't have any earthly idea." And that's the truth... Just like WE don't know how difficult it is to be a D1 one player...The dedication, the physical and mental stress, dealing with school, social life...We really don't have any idea... And in the game, you have to understand that they're playing at a level and pace that none of us can even fathom...The decisions have to be instantaneous...You have to rely on your instincts and EXPERIENCE to excel... I know they get benefits from playing IU basketball...When you're in the top 2% of basketball playes in the US, that's deserved...And it's another thing they have to manage...Christ, you gave me JHS NIL money at 19 for playing basketball, I'd have probably made Babe Ruth look like Mother Teresa... All I'm asking is for us to be fair... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 17 minutes ago, Inequality said: Basketball is a fun & simple game. All of us here are sports nuts. We may not be the coach but that doesn’t mean we can’t have an opinion. Right now, IU men’s team stinks. From this board to the next, to twitter to ESPN, to BTN to other teams fan boards. The entire sports landscape can see it. Blame it on the rain if you want to. Complaining here isn’t causing it. It’s what fans do on a message board when their team stinks. No different than the praise the team will get when they win. Have a good day ladies and gentlemen. It’s Friday! Of course we can...Invalid or not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 Just now, IUFLA said: Of course we can...Invalid or not... Invalid opinion? Meaning opinion to which doesn’t have an effect or isn’t applicable? Yeah that’s every single “fan” in the country. I agree with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Inequality said: Invalid opinion? Meaning opinion to which doesn’t have an effect or isn’t applicable? Yeah that’s every single “fan” in the country. I agree with that Well, we're all in agreement then...and all before lunch! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 37 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Thought this article was interesting and relevant to the conversation... "Wahl can defend all five positions and, as veteran Spartans coach Tom Izzo pointed out, is UW’s glue guy. Michigan State (12-4, 4-1) made some big plays down the stretch and deserved this win, but it’s fair to wonder if the outcome would have been different with a healthy Wahl in the lineup. “I like Greg’s team,” Izzo said. “They’re going to be really good, but they’ve got to have all their bodies.” I get what you're saying and agree with a lot of what you're saying. I also don't think Woodson is doing a very good job right now. The vast, vast majority of us don't expect a Big Ten Title without XJ and Race. I'm not sure I expected it with them. I dont think many would even expect a top 3-4 finish without them. I also agree that things like the Fife stuff is ridiculous, and the typical playbook of rolling out the "I heard coach has a massive ego that won't let him adjust" or "I saw a mad player on the sideline, heard he hates the coach." Anytime we lose 3 in a row fans roll out the ego thing regardless of who the coach is. With all of that said, the team isn't even competing right now. We've made no real visible adjustments, etc. The way the staff and players are dealing with the injury situation is not good and extremely disappointing. Woodson is not doing a good job right now and there many things that can be criticized. We basically gave up at PSU and while the score ended up close, NW controlled the entire game in our gym. I just want to see some fight. Some adjustments. Some tactical coaching moves to try and get some of these guys in a better position to deal with the hand they've all been dealt, and it hasn't happened. I also want to see some fight, some motivation, some passion across the board. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, BGleas said: I get what you're saying and agree with a lot of what you're saying. I also don't think Woodson is doing a very good job right now. The vast, vast majority of us don't expect a Big Ten Title without XJ and Race. I'm not sure I expected it with them. I dont think many would even expect a top 3-4 finish without them. I also agree that things like the Fife stuff is ridiculous, and the typical playbook of rolling out the "I heard coach has a massive ego that won't let him adjust" or "I saw a mad player on the sideline, heard he hates the coach." Anytime we lose 3 in a row fans roll out the ego thing regardless of who the coach is. With all of that said, the team isn't even competing right now. We've made no real visible adjustments, etc. The way the staff and players are dealing with the injury situation is not good and extremely disappointing. Woodson is not doing a good job right now and there many things that can be criticized. We basically gave up at PSU and while the score ended up close, NW controlled the entire game in our gym. I just want to see some fight. Some adjustments. Some tactical coaching moves to try and get some of these guys in a better position to deal with the hand they've all been dealt, and it hasn't happened. I also want to see some fight, some motivation, some passion across the board. Exactly where I am at 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, IUFLA said: You can't compare something that's as readily obvious as your 2 plane scenario to something as subjective as evaluating the play of a D1 player...If you noticed two planes landing on a runway before I did, I should never work traffic again... But I'm glad you brought that up... I once had a NAS engineer stand behind me and watch me work traffic...When I got out of position, he said, "Didn't look that hard." Now this is a guy I liked and respected, and is still one of the smartest people I know...But I told him, "until YOU are the one talking to the airplanes, you don't have any earthly idea." And that's the truth... Just like WE don't know how difficult it is to be a D1 one player...The dedication, the physical and mental stress, dealing with school, social life...We really don't have any idea... And in the game, you have to understand that they're playing at a level and pace that none of us can even fathom...The decisions have to be instantaneous...You have to rely on your instincts and EXPERIENCE to excel... I know they get benefits from playing IU basketball...When you're in the top 2% of basketball playes in the US, that's deserved...And it's another thing they have to manage...Christ, you gave me JHS NIL money at 19 for playing basketball, I'd have probably made Babe Ruth look like Mother Teresa... All I'm asking is for us to be fair... I was saying that somewhat tongue cheek - the humor obviously didn't come across. I'll just say this without pointing fingers: per my observations this 3 game stretch is the worst basketball I've seen from an IU team since Crean's first year. But at least Crean's first year was kind of fun because nothing was expected and you could see the guys progress. Which makes it tougher is that we have a probable NBA first rounder and pre-season all-American on the court 95% of the time. Edited January 13, 2023 by tdhoosier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 59 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I don't know where the disconnect is coming here...I think that's a reasonable expectation... What I don't think is reasonable is finding a 5 second clip and indicting a whole tream and coach over it...What I don't think is reasonable is taking a 3rd hand quote and saying Woody's not holding people accoutable... It isn't just a 5 second clip and you know it. You are cherry picking. Coach Adragna had 3 separate posts showing 12? completely wide open shots. As far as accountability, where do you see evidence of same? None of us...not ONE, are at practice every day. We don't know if Coach Woodson punishes players or not. We don't know conversations he has with them at all. We don't know what the assistant coaches do at all...Yet somehow from our recliners, we can call for Coach Woodson to be fired. Who on this forum is calling for him to be fired? Even in the "Fire Woodson" thread on the other forum, the vast majority aren't saying to actually fire him. We don't know what goes on in practices. We have rumors (that are negative), we have former players saying that things don't appear on court to be going well behind the scenes. The same players always start. Grandma's of players are saying their are "chosen" guys. Where do you think she gets that notion? You know, these kids are human. They get pissed about unwarranted crticism just like you or I would. As I've said many times, if it's presented thoughtfully and backed up by evidence, hey, I'm good with it...And I'm sure they would be too... So the 5 second clip up above isn't fair evidence? It wasn't an example of play from that entire game? You didn't seem really receptive to that evidence. We got a 21 point lead against Iowa playing very well. It got cut in half, we lost Race, and we went into the tank. Northwestern ran us from start to finish. We made it close at the end so there is about a 5 to 8 minute period in that game where you could say, "See, that was pretty good." We started out against Penn State playing fairly well and then the unending parade of blow bys and shots so wide open a middle schooler would be comfortable taking them. The criticism isn't unwarranted no matter how often you say that. Don freaking Fischer said they quit. Was that unwarranted? Coach Woodson has said many times this was the only college coaching job he would have ever taken. He came here to lead us back to what we once were. I appreciate that.And I certainly don't think he deserves some of the barbs like "lazy" without solid proof... The arm flinging anguish peppered with half truths and in some cases outright lies isn't going to stand with me. I'll call it out when I see it...And I've seen too much of it since the end of the Penn State game... Call it out directly where you see it. There is a quote and response function and it provides context to what you are actually complaining about. See above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 53 minutes ago, IUFLA said: With a caveat... None of us know more than a guy who has played both college and pro basketball, and coached in the NBA for 3 decades... I'm quite sure he knows what bad basketball looks like as well... Everybody knows what bad basketball looks like. Everyone. The difference between coach and fans is that the coach is expected to fix bad basketball when he sees it and teach players how not to play it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 13, 2023 Report Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, BGleas said: I get what you're saying and agree with a lot of what you're saying. I also don't think Woodson is doing a very good job right now. The vast, vast majority of us don't expect a Big Ten Title without XJ and Race. I'm not sure I expected it with them. I dont think many would even expect a top 3-4 finish without them. I also agree that things like the Fife stuff is ridiculous, and the typical playbook of rolling out the "I heard coach has a massive ego that won't let him adjust" or "I saw a mad player on the sideline, heard he hates the coach." Anytime we lose 3 in a row fans roll out the ego thing regardless of who the coach is. With all of that said, the team isn't even competing right now. We've made no real visible adjustments, etc. The way the staff and players are dealing with the injury situation is not good and extremely disappointing. Woodson is not doing a good job right now and there many things that can be criticized. We basically gave up at PSU and while the score ended up close, NW controlled the entire game in our gym. I just want to see some fight. Some adjustments. Some tactical coaching moves to try and get some of these guys in a better position to deal with the hand they've all been dealt, and it hasn't happened. I also want to see some fight, some motivation, some passion across the board. I didn't say it...Tom Izzo did...and regardless of his morale character, his word concerning college coaching and players means a lot more than mine You played basketball at a fairly high level...Did everyone do what the coach wanted them to? Did everyone compete just because he told you to? Coach Woodson's dilemma is that of every coach...He needs to win... Normally, that takes your best players...If you don't have those players, you still try... And I've seen us play zone, press...we've tried a number of things that are out of character for a Mike Woodson team...Those aren't adjustments? Look, I think everyone is frustrated...some past the point of rationality (not you) but how do you elicit fight and motivation ? Sometimes it takes time and experince to know what the coach is actually talking about...Do you think Malik and JHS didn't know that throwing the ball in the stands was wrong? For the "bench them and play Banks and Duncomb" crowd, what do you do when they're getting their asses kicked even worse? Putting them in the PSU game the other night would have been throwing gas on the fire...In the time Banks was in there, he airballed a dunk...I'd never seen that... As I said, I understand the frustration, but words from a coach only go so far...He's said MANY times that he has to get these kids to understand HOW to compete...And that takes time... Edited January 13, 2023 by IUFLA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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