Rutgers Post Game Thread

[Hoosierdave]

Reporter: “Coach, thoughts on substitution patterns, free throw shooting, rebounding, turnovers, and overall effort and discipline from your team?” 

Woodson: “I’m not going to sit here and answer that…we’ve gotten some good results here and there. But mostly nowhere.”

[Hoosierdave]

Woodson looking at “the hump” he’s trying to get us over. 

[dgambill]

20 hours ago, BGleas said:

Not much to say. Pretty predictable, and just a horrible performance from the coaching staff on down to the players. 

Horrendous lineups especially in the first half. It's like the coaching staff met these players for the first time tonight and knew nothing about them. 

Back to the two bigs clogging the paint again for the most part. The offensive system is like one step forward, two steps back. 

Then of course the players. Ridiculous turnovers, rebounding, free throw shooting and shooting in general. 

Just a really bad effort from top to bottom.  

You know who else also played two bigs and had basically the same issues…the Pacers until they traded Sabonis….got rid of their best player but it worked out because they brought in a dynamic/smart great shooting pg and started running and opened up the court to shoot. If Rick Carlisle at his age figure it out why can’t Woody?? Our biggest issue is we can’t trade in college basketball. I’ll give Woody next year to update his roster to modern basketball and if he fails to do so I don’t care how many top recruits he brings in….if they aren’t shooter/scorers he will need to go.

[Hoosier987]

54 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

Reporter: “Coach, thoughts on substitution patterns, free throw shooting, rebounding, turnovers, and overall effort and discipline from your team?” 

Woodson: “I’m not going to sit here and answer that…we’ve gotten some good results here and there. But mostly nowhere.”

 

[Inequality]

10 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

 

Pretty much what we have been saying all along.

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, dgambill said:

You know who else also played two bigs and had basically the same issues…the Pacers until they traded Sabonis….got rid of their best player but it worked out because they brought in a dynamic/smart great shooting pg and started running and opened up the court to shoot. If Rick Carlisle at his age figure it out why can’t Woody?? Our biggest issue is we can’t trade in college basketball. I’ll give Woody next year to update his roster to modern basketball and if he fails to do so I don’t care how many top recruits he brings in….if they aren’t shooter/scorers he will need to go.

Carlisle is a much better coach than Woodson, let’s be real. 

[Coach1K]

 

I know I'm comparing apples to oranges on what X did but I had a flashback to this game on a similar instance.

[John S]

Glad you found/showed Zeller video….that takes care of “Equity”. 😜

[IUCrazy2]

2 hours ago, Hoosier987 said:

 

He has been sharing a bunch of uncomfortable statistics....not filling that last scholarship with another guard was criminal.

[KoB2011]

14 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

He has been sharing a bunch of uncomfortable statistics....not filling that last scholarship with another guard was criminal.

Yes it was. The coaching staff chose to not use the last scholarship and now is stuck with the fruits of two guys that have played under them the longest.

 

[Hoosier987]

1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

He has been sharing a bunch of uncomfortable statistics....not filling that last scholarship with another guard was criminal.

Can’t say I’m shocked about those statistics. It’s a shame too because we actually have a legit front court. Seemed like everyone knew we needed a lot more guard play but the staff. 

[Muddy River]

1 hour ago, Coach1K said:

 

I know I'm comparing apples to oranges on what X did but I had a flashback to this game on a similar instance.

Last night reminded me of this :

https://www.insidethehall.com/2009/02/07/hoosier-loss-overshadowed-by-dumes-shenanigans/

 

Of course Devin would later be charged with attempted murder, so I guess that Sutton kid should be grateful he got a ball tap.

 

[ForHumanity]

1. X sneaks freshman out of the hotel and are suspended for the Northwestern game. Critical game. we lose.

2. Drives down Walnut Street at 100 mph and then switches seats to throw someone else under the bus.

3. Nuts an Ohio State player last year.

4. Nearly gets in a fight on the floor of a game.

5. Nuts his second victim @ Rutgers.

6. Had baggage at Pitt and we still take him.

He has LOW IQ.

Woodson needs to remove the captain title from x.

X needs suspended!

If Woody does nothing and starts X the next game.

Woody needs to be fired!

The team will only get worse not only this year but next year also.

The BRAND is being destroyed by a non-Hoosier.

I will be done with IU and find another team to follow if X starts the next game.

I

[OGIUAndy]

52 minutes ago, ForHumanity said:

1. X sneaks freshman out of the hotel and are suspended for the Northwestern game. Critical game. we lose.

2. Drives down Walnut Street at 100 mph and then switches seats to throw someone else under the bus.

3. Nuts an Ohio State player last year.

4. Nearly gets in a fight on the floor of a game.

5. Nuts his second victim @ Rutgers.

6. Had baggage at Pitt and we still take him.

He has LOW IQ.

Woodson needs to remove the captain title from x.

X needs suspended!

If Woody does nothing and starts X the next game.

Woody needs to be fired!

The team will only get worse not only this year but next year also.

The BRAND is being destroyed by a non-Hoosier.

I will be done with IU and find another team to follow if X starts the next game.

I

Sorry, but this is a silly overreaction. 

Edited January 11 by OGIUAndy

[NCHoosier32]

6 hours ago, OGIUAndy said:

Sorry, but this is a silly overreaction. 

disagree

[Basketball Junkie]

6 hours ago, OGIUAndy said:

Sorry, but this is a silly overreaction. 

For the most part I disagree. Johnson has given plenty of reason to have the captains title removed and be suspended. I personally think he should be done but I don't see that happening.

Woodson is in a really rough spot here. Surely he knows something has to be done. But he also knows if they lay an egg and lose to Minnesota at home things are going to get very ugly.

[Hoosier987]

X a captain? The culture and decision making we see from the team is a product of X’s leadership. There is none. Woodson should’ve told him to go on his merry way at the end of last year (his 5th college year). 

[HMSHoosier]

The overreactions on here are comical. 

After Nebraska game "coach needs fired he sucks, can't coach...blah, blah, blah". 

After Ohio State game "best game I've seen coached".

Rutgers "coach needs fired he sucks" and now I see we are wanting to kick players off the team for a bonehead move, but in the same breathe complain about not having a enough depth the guard position. It absolutely bogles my mind to read some of this crap.

Lets start with the firing the coach argument.  Who do you replace him with? At what point do you quit firing coaches every 3 or 4 years so something can actually be built? Believe me I can't stand seeing them play like they do especially on the road and I absolutely hate losing. My expectations are yes we should be contending for BIG championships and National titles, but realistically I know that's not going to happen every year.  If you came into this year not expecting growing pains after losing 4 starters (who were the 4 leading scorers) and 2 transfers (who were usually the first 2 off the bench) than in my opinion you didn't have very realistic expectations.  Go back to 1987, win the national title the top 2 players graduate, come back the next year and have a record of 19-10 overall 11-7 in the BIG get a #4 seed and get knocked out to the first round. Did that meet everyones expectations? College basketball is as competitive as its ever been in my opinion with NIL and the transfer portal. In this day and age where do you think a 19-10 overall record would get you seeded in the tournament?

Do missed free throws annoy the crap out of me yes, but I highly doubt they are not being worked on every day in practice.  I find it hard to believe that Cheaney and Hulls are not working with these guys on their shooting woes, but than again I'm not at the practices to know that 100%. Maybe some of the "insiders" have info to debunk that.

Why don't they recruit shooters argument.  Every kid that gets recruited in a top college program can shoot, are some better than others yes.  Take Galloway for example, he shot like 40% from 3 last year this year they are just not falling, it happens its not like he forgot how to shoot from last year to this year. Now I'm sure if I went to the recruiting page and searched through all of the recruits we have there would be threads on probably all of these kids talking about their high school stats and how they were the leading scorers of their teams and shot a certain percentage from three, and average this many points per game.

Why don't they recruit guards argument.  Do people forget JHS last year? Going into last year I honestly thought he would be at minimum a 2 year player but he played good enough to go to the next level and good for him. There's also Newton who is injured and red shirting who was a highly rated recruit. I would venture to say that wasn't in their game plan.

Substitution pattern argument. Do I get frustrated with this, yes, but I'm also not in practice to see what the staff sees. Again if there is insight to tell me otherwise please by all means correct me on it. There's been moments this year when the bench has came in and a certain 1 or 2 of those players had been really productive and actually seemed to get things going. Than there have been moments when they come in and look lost it happens. If the staff didn't think they deserved the minutes I truly don't believe they would get them. 

Sorry for the long post

[IUFLA]

1 minute ago, HMSHoosier said:

The overreactions on here are comical. 

After Nebraska game "coach needs fired he sucks, can't coach...blah, blah, blah". 

After Ohio State game "best game I've seen coached".

Rutgers "coach needs fired he sucks" and now I see we are wanting to kick players off the team for a bonehead move, but in the same breathe complain about not having a enough depth the guard position. It absolutely bogles my mind to read some of this crap.

Lets start with the firing the coach argument.  Who do you replace him with? At what point do you quit firing coaches every 3 or 4 years so something can actually be built? Believe me I can't stand seeing them play like they do especially on the road and I absolutely hate losing. My expectations are yes we should be contending for BIG championships and National titles, but realistically I know that's not going to happen every year.  If you came into this year not expecting growing pains after losing 4 starters (who were the 4 leading scorers) and 2 transfers (who were usually the first 2 off the bench) than in my opinion you didn't have very realistic expectations.  Go back to 1987, win the national title the top 2 players graduate, come back the next year and have a record of 19-10 overall 11-7 in the BIG get a #4 seed and get knocked out to the first round. Did that meet everyones expectations? College basketball is as competitive as its ever been in my opinion with NIL and the transfer portal. In this day and age where do you think a 19-10 overall record would get you seeded in the tournament?

Do missed free throws annoy the crap out of me yes, but I highly doubt they are not being worked on every day in practice.  I find it hard to believe that Cheaney and Hulls are not working with these guys on their shooting woes, but than again I'm not at the practices to know that 100%. Maybe some of the "insiders" have info to debunk that.

Why don't they recruit shooters argument.  Every kid that gets recruited in a top college program can shoot, are some better than others yes.  Take Galloway for example, he shot like 40% from 3 last year this year they are just not falling, it happens its not like he forgot how to shoot from last year to this year. Now I'm sure if I went to the recruiting page and searched through all of the recruits we have there would be threads on probably all of these kids talking about their high school stats and how they were the leading scorers of their teams and shot a certain percentage from three, and average this many points per game.

Why don't they recruit guards argument.  Do people forget JHS last year? Going into last year I honestly thought he would be at minimum a 2 year player but he played good enough to go to the next level and good for him. There's also Newton who is injured and red shirting who was a highly rated recruit. I would venture to say that wasn't in their game plan.

Substitution pattern argument. Do I get frustrated with this, yes, but I'm also not in practice to see what the staff sees. Again if there is insight to tell me otherwise please by all means correct me on it. There's been moments this year when the bench has came in and a certain 1 or 2 of those players had been really productive and actually seemed to get things going. Than there have been moments when they come in and look lost it happens. If the staff didn't think they deserved the minutes I truly don't believe they would get them. 

Sorry for the long post

Awesome post... Thanks

[Artesian_86]

12 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

X a captain? The culture and decision making we see from the team is a product of X’s leadership. There is none. Woodson should’ve told him to go on his merry way at the end of last year (his 5th college year). 

In all honesty, Leal is the only Senior worthy of being the team captain. Although he doesn't get the playing time of a Captain (he should be playing more than he does), but he definitely has the leadership skills, respect and admiration from coaches, player and fans. MHO....

[13th&Jackson]

1 hour ago, HMSHoosier said:

 

Why don't they recruit guards argument.  Do people forget JHS last year? Going into last year I honestly thought he would be at minimum a 2 year player but he played good enough to go to the next level and good for him. There's also Newton who is injured and red shirting who was a highly rated recruit. I would venture to say that wasn't in their game plan.

 

The team lacked shooters and guard depth last season. Johnson goes down and JHS had to play ironman the whole season. Everyone knew JHS was leaving before the season was over. Unfortunately, Cupps isn't JHS and shouldn't have been expected to be him. 

Newton missed nearly his entire senior season due to his knee injury. His availability for this season was questionable last spring. He also wasn't a shooter in high school, he was a physical driver who Woodson recruited especially for his defensive potential. That's great to have, but even if healthy, I'm not sure he would have helped much offensively this season. 247 had him as a 4 star, #127 overall and #15 combo guard. That's solid, but not likely to be an impact player as a freshman. 

"He's a tough competitor, a little bulldog," Woodson said. "He just plays hard. He loves to compete ... He can play the one and the two, that's what he played in high school. That's what attracted us to him, in terms of him being able to play both ways and score and initiate the offense. But defensively is where I think he's going to really excel because he's just tough."

The reality is that the die was cast for this season during the offseason. Hopefully, over the rest of the season, they overachieve their personnel deficiencies. But, we're halfway through the season and the same issues keep appearing. 

Here are Trey Galloway's 3pt and FT% by season:

FR      18%    74%

SO     21%    65%

JR     46%    64%

SR     24%    50%

Which number looks like the outlier?  Last season, TJD became phenomenal at passing out of the double and triple teams. That had to be a big factor in Gallo's one season of three point shooting. Otherwise, his confidence appears to be shattered. 

Maybe the light switch will fully come on for Gunn and Mgbako and they can have a strong finish to the season. 

[tdhoosier]

1 hour ago, HMSHoosier said:

After Nebraska game "coach needs fired he sucks, can't coach...blah, blah, blah". 

After Ohio State game "best game I've seen coached".

Rutgers "coach needs fired he sucks" and now I see we are wanting to kick players off the team for a bonehead move, but in the same breathe complain about not having a enough depth the guard position. It absolutely bogles my mind to read some of this crap.

Respectfully, 

It's a message board and you are specifically referring to 'post game threads'. We're supposed to talk about the good/bad things in post game threads.....because it's a forum....for conversing. Naturally, when we lose (or even win we win this year) the team played bad, so we discuss where and how we THINK it went bad. And vice versa for the wins. 

TBH, I'm not sure why few over-react about over-reactions on fan message boards that are pretty much built for this sort of thing. 

Many of the criticisms, or 'over-reactions' as you put it, you seem to agree with. 

1 hour ago, HMSHoosier said:

Believe me I can't stand seeing them play like they do especially on the road and I absolutely hate losing.

1 hour ago, HMSHoosier said:

Do missed free throws annoy the crap out of me yes

1 hour ago, HMSHoosier said:

Substitution pattern argument. Do I get frustrated with this, yes

As pointed out, your reason for these short-comings is just different. And ones that i'm on record for disagreeing with....

Bad play in general - It's one thing if they are playing bad, but progressing. However, to this date I don't see much progression. The very same things that have plagued us in the beginning of the season are still plaguing us now. 

Big picture, we also still have many of the problems that have plagued us in Woody's first year. Or have regressed. All 2.5 years the rebounding has been bad. All 2.5 years the roster construction has been bad. All 2.5 years the shooting has been bad. We have also regressed defensively every single year. Sure you can blame the players, but there's one person responsible for building the roster with said players. 

Guards/Shooters - Yes we are short on guard and shooting depth. We were even short on guard depth and lack of shooting last year with JHS, that's why many of us were on record BEGGING for more guards last Spring. X was coming off of an injury and his eligibility was up in the air. In May Newton was at best 50/50 for playing this season. The coaches took 3 forwards in the transfer portal and left a roster spot open. 

Yes, I blame the coaches for this. I'm sure you could counter that 'not everybody wants to come here' or that 'what guards could we get?' And I will say the coaching staff needs to recruit portal players better and be better at identifying talent. Many teams got playable guards in the portal. And with a treasure trove of NIL opportunities, national exposure, history, etc., we didn't. 

Sub Patterns - TBH, I'm not how this topic is even debatable anymore. Every single usable metric (and the eye test) says that line-up with 4 of our starters on the bench is horrid. If you're talking about what Woody sees in practice i'm not even sure how to respond. Because if practice situations don't translate to games, then you ditch them. 

.....

All of this and i'm still not calling for Woody to be fired. But I do think his seat is getting hot. He has done a great job of bringing the iU family back to together. I think he CAN recruit, he just needs to recruit players that better fit the roster. Some of his in-game coaching and plays he calls are excellent. But in the end it's all about wins. Let's see where this goes. 

 

[btownqb]

17 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

The team lacked shooters and guard depth last season. Johnson goes down and JHS had to play ironman the whole season. Everyone knew JHS was leaving before the season was over. Unfortunately, Cupps isn't JHS and shouldn't have been expected to be him. 

Newton missed nearly his entire senior season due to his knee injury. His availability for this season was questionable last spring. He also wasn't a shooter in high school, he was a physical driver who Woodson recruited especially for his defensive potential. That's great to have, but even if healthy, I'm not sure he would have helped much offensively this season. 247 had him as a 4 star, #127 overall and #15 combo guard. That's solid, but not likely to be an impact player as a freshman. 

"He's a tough competitor, a little bulldog," Woodson said. "He just plays hard. He loves to compete ... He can play the one and the two, that's what he played in high school. That's what attracted us to him, in terms of him being able to play both ways and score and initiate the offense. But defensively is where I think he's going to really excel because he's just tough."

The reality is that the die was cast for this season during the offseason. Hopefully, over the rest of the season, they overachieve their personnel deficiencies. But, we're halfway through the season and the same issues keep appearing. 

Here are Trey Galloway's 3pt and FT% by season:

FR      18%    74%

SO     21%    65%

JR     46%    64%

SR     24%    50%

Which number looks like the outlier?  Last season, TJD became phenomenal at passing out of the double and triple teams. That had to be a big factor in Gallo's one season of three point shooting. Otherwise, his confidence appears to be shattered. 

Maybe the light switch will fully come on for Gunn and Mgbako and they can have a strong finish to the season. 

yeah but Newton is 72nd on Rivals!! Which recruiting service should we go by?!?!? AHHHHHH

[btownqb]

Sub-pattern discussions, just like many of you had during Crean/Archie, are just such a waste/blown absurdly out of porportion. I can understand Woodson's reply to the reporter who asked that stupid question. 

Edited January 11 by btownqb

[13th&Jackson]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

yeah but Newton is 72nd on Rivals!! Which recruiting service should we go by?!?!? AHHHHHH

So, let's just say he averaged out to 100