2019 MLB Discussion

[rico]

3 hours ago, Proud2BAHoosier said:

Yanks/Sawks re-new their rivalry this time at Yankee Stadium. Seems beat the neck out of the pitching staff and took 3 out of 4 games. I'm hoping the Yankees can return the "favor", although I don't think out will happen.

I just saw that 40 years ago today is when Thurman Munson died.  I might hate the Yankees but he was one of my favorite players.  Died way too young.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

Just now, rico said:

I just saw that 40 years ago today is when Thurman Munson died.  I might hate the Yankees but he was one of my favorite players.  Died way too young.

Amen...… Guy could have been a HOF'er

[rico]

Just now, Proud2BAHoosier said:

Amen...… Guy could have been a HOF'er

In my book he is.

[rico]

The Reds are 27-8 when leading after the 1st inning.  Votto hit a 1st inning homerun last night, as a team that is 32 HRs in the 1st...that leads the majors.

[IUFLA]

9 hours ago, rico said:

In my book he is.

Mine too. Look at the numbers and the leadership. Plus he played the most difficult position on the field...

[rico]

9 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Mine too. Look at the numbers and the leadership. Plus he played the most difficult position on the field...

His numbers in the post season are something else.  He arguably was the best player at his position for the 11 years he played.

[IUFLA]

19 minutes ago, rico said:

His numbers in the post season are something else.  He arguably was the best player at his position for the 11 years he played.

I'll tell you the other catcher from that era that I think should be in, even if it is sacrelige for a Cub fan, Ted Simmons.

[5fouls]

Career WAR leaders for catchers.  Everyone ahead of Simmons with the exception of Joe Mauer is in the Hall of Fame.  Munson a little further down the list.

Edit:  You have to sort the column by WAR.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

[Seeking6]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I'll tell you the other catcher from that era that I think should be in, even if it is sacrelige for a Cub fan, Ted Simmons.

He was so good for so long only Bench was maybe better at hitting. His defense was never as bad as people thought. My guess is off the field stuff might be the reason he's been left out. 

[rico]

29 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

He was so good for so long only Bench was maybe better at hitting. His defense was never as bad as people thought. My guess is off the field stuff might be the reason he's been left out. 

I don't recall any off field stuff about Ted...but I remember him and Whitey getting into it and that led to his trade to the Brewers.

[Seeking6]

17 minutes ago, rico said:

I don't recall any off field stuff about Ted...but I remember him and Whitey getting into it and that led to his trade to the Brewers.

Let's just say in a very conservative town like St. Louis during that time his opinion (and his wife's) on war,etc... wasn't real popular. You can google the other stuff. I've always thought his play was Cooperstown worthy which makes me think the only other reason is some of stances, appearance...some people thought because he had long hair he didn't care as much as others,etc...

Probably a reach on my end.

[IUFLA]

If you look at the trade that the Cards dealt Simmons on, in hindsight it seems like a laugher...A should be HOFer (Simmons), a REAL HOFer (Fingers), and an eventual Cy Young winner (Pete Vuckovich) for David Green, Sixto Lezcano, Dave Lapointe, and Lary Sorensen.

But, living down in that part of the country at that time, I sincerely believe that the Cards would have never won the WS in 82 (against their trading partner, the Brewers...who were rightfully in the AL at that time 😁) if they had not made that trade (and the Garry Templeton/Ozzie Smith trade).

Whitey had to have his type of players.

[rico]

30 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

If you look at the trade that the Cards dealt Simmons on, in hindsight it seems like a laugher...A should be HOFer (Simmons), a REAL HOFer (Fingers), and an eventual Cy Young winner (Pete Vuckovich) for David Green, Sixto Lezcano, Dave Lapointe, and Lary Sorensen.

But, living down in that part of the country at that time, I sincerely believe that the Cards would have never won the WS in 82 (against their trading partner, the Brewers...who were rightfully in the AL at that time 😁) if they had not made that trade (and the Garry Templeton/Ozzie Smith trade).

Whitey had to have his type of players.

Actually at the time I thought the Ozzie Smith trade was a laugher...Templeton was a fine SS.  And I think the stars aligned for the Cards in '82.

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

If you look at the trade that the Cards dealt Simmons on, in hindsight it seems like a laugher...A should be HOFer (Simmons), a REAL HOFer (Fingers), and an eventual Cy Young winner (Pete Vuckovich) for David Green, Sixto Lezcano, Dave Lapointe, and Lary Sorensen.

But, living down in that part of the country at that time, I sincerely believe that the Cards would have never won the WS in 82 (against their trading partner, the Brewers...who were rightfully in the AL at that time 😁) if they had not made that trade (and the Garry Templeton/Ozzie Smith trade).

Whitey had to have his type of players.

I was at a Cincy game where Sixto Freaking Lexcano hit a game winning homer in the 9th to beat my beloved Reds.  Hated him ever since.

[IUFLA]

2 hours ago, rico said:

Actually at the time I thought the Ozzie Smith trade was a laugher...Templeton was a fine SS.  And I think the stars aligned for the Cards in '82.

A lot of people in St Louis did too at the time. They thought Smith was Dal Maxvill with more range. I'll add that while Templeton was a great player, the rumors about his drug use and his attitude were no secret in St Louis. I was there the day he gave the crowd the finger (twice) while grabbing his crotch. The St Louis faithful were wilder than I'd ever seen them before or since.

[Stlboiler23]

4 hours ago, rico said:

Actually at the time I thought the Ozzie Smith trade was a laugher...Templeton was a fine SS.  And I think the stars aligned for the Cards in '82.

Then got screwed over in ‘85. They should have 12 WS titles. 

[Stlboiler23]

5 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Career WAR leaders for catchers.  Everyone ahead of Simmons with the exception of Joe Mauer is in the Hall of Fame.  Munson a little further down the list.

Edit:  You have to sort the column by WAR.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

Question for you and others on Molina. What does he have to do to make the HOF?

[IUFLA]

20 minutes ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Then got screwed over in ‘85. They should have 12 WS titles. 

Or maybe even 13 If Curt Flood, one of the best CFs of his day, doesn't misplay Jim Northrup's drive into a triple.

Extra treat in the link. A younger Harry Caray calling the game (notice how much he sounds like his son, Skip back then).

[FKIM01]

38 minutes ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Question for you and others on Molina. What does he have to do to make the HOF?

Not a damned thing beyond what he has.  He was always known for his arm to 2nd base.  He has matured into a tremendous game manager and how he has evolved into an offensive threat is impressive.

16 years in the majors...all with one team at the toughest position on the field.  That's damned impressive and I'll bet all the Cubs fans here have no problem acknowledging Molina's accomplishments.  Some stats of note:

41% career caught stealing

65 career pickoffs

.995 career fielding percentage

75 career errors

.282 career batting average

150 HRs

1918 career hits

64 career stolen bases (catcher!)

38.8 career WAR

Other than HRs , his offensive stats are comparable or better than Johnny Bench.  On the defensive side, most stats are comparable with Molina having a little better fielding percentage.  Molina hasn't hit for power like Bench did, but his overall batting average was better and his fielding percentage was better. 

I can't imagine he's not a hall of famer.

EDIT:

Apparently, I got a little caught up in my enthusiasm for what Molina has accomplished as his WAR number is higher than only 2 HOFers.  What he has to do is develop some additional pop to pump up his HR and RBI numbers.  Defensively, he's HOF-worthy, but where he'll likely fall short is plate production, as good as he's become, that's probably what makes him a fringe HOFer.

[Stlboiler23]

8 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Not a damned thing beyond what he has.  He was always known for his arm to 2nd base.  He has matured into a tremendous game manager and how he has evolved into an offensive threat is impressive.

16 years in the majors...all with one team at the toughest position on the field.  That's damned impressive and I'll bet all the Cubs fans here have no problem acknowledging Molina's accomplishments.  Some stats of note:

41% career caught stealing

65 career pickoffs

.995 career fielding percentage

75 career errors

.282 career batting average

150 HRs

1918 career hits

64 career stolen bases (catcher!)

38.8 career WAR

Other than HRs , his offensive stats are comparable or better than Johnny Bench.  On the defensive side, most stats are comparable with Molina having a little better fielding percentage.  Molina hasn't hit for power like Bench did, but his overall batting average was better and his fielding percentage was better. 

I can't imagine he's not a hall of famer.

To me, he’s absolutely a hall of famer. But I know I’m biased haha. 

Side note but a few weekends back the Cardinals were hosting the Astros and were celebrating 15 years since the ‘04 team won the pennant. You had guys like Edmonds, Rolen, Chris Carpenter, Reggie Sanders, and people might not remember but Molina was a rookie on that team. He backed up Mike Matheny. Crazy he’s been playing at a high level for so long. 

[FKIM01]

1 minute ago, Stlboiler23 said:

To me, he’s absolutely a hall of famer. But I know I’m biased haha. 

Side note but a few weekends back the Cardinals were hosting the Astros and were celebrating 15 years since the ‘04 team won the pennant. You had guys like Edmonds, Rolen, Chris Carpenter, Reggie Sanders, and people might not remember but Molina was a rookie on that team. He backed up Mike Matheny. Crazy he’s been playing at a high level for so long. 

I posted some 2nd thoughts after you copied this.  I think he's very close, but likely short on HRs and RBIs.  That's probably what prevents his WAR number from being better.

...and yes, Ted Simmons and Thurman Munson probably belong in the HOF.

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, Stlboiler23 said:

Question for you and others on Molina. What does he have to do to make the HOF?

I think Molina is in.  He was the standard defensively for most of his career.  His defense puts him over the top.  I don't think he gets in based on offense alone.  

[Stlboiler23]

26 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

I posted some 2nd thoughts after you copied this.  I think he's very close, but likely short on HRs and RBIs.  That's probably what prevents his WAR number from being better.

...and yes, Ted Simmons and Thurman Munson probably belong in the HOF.

Might be tough to pump up the HR numbers as he’s 37 now. He def can/will get to 2,000 hits though. Should be interesting to see. 

[Stlboiler23]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

I think Molina is in.  He was the standard defensively for most of his career.  His defense puts him over the top.  I don't think he gets in based on offense alone.  

Agree with you 100% re his offense. That alone isn’t HOF caliber. But his defense like you said should put him over the top

[5fouls]

A big part of the HOF decision is whether the player was the best, or among the best, at his position during the era he played in.  So, while Molina's numbers may fall a little short when compared to some of the historical greats, there is no one in the era he played in that you would consider to be a better catcher.  For 10-12 straight years the answer to the question 'Who is the best catcher in the NL' was Molina.