Coach Mike Woodson Megathread

[5fouls]

IU had enough talent to have won the NBA title, right @Basketball Junkie?

[DWB]

3 hours ago, IUFLA said:

#1...He passed Jeff Newton for the top spot in the Minnesota game

I thought I remembered that, but didn't want to take the chance of being roasted alive here if I was wrong.

[Steubenhoosier]

1 hour ago, Basketball Junkie said:

No, last year was definitely not just a wasted year.  But a team that has TJD, a first team AA, one of the best to ever play here plus a stud like JHS to complement him should have high expectations. IMO higher than what they accomplished.  Given what those 2 did, then yes, tying for 2nd 3 games out of first and getting pummeled in the 2nd round of the tournament is a dissapointment.

Guys like TJD don't come along often. Pretty much non existant to have someone that good for a 3rd year. When you do those need to become the special seasons. 

As has been discussed before you give Johnson far more credit than what I do. I guess this coming year will truly show what his value is.

Coach Shep, is that you?

[Zuckerkorn]

54 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Coach Shep, is that you?

🤔

[Indykev]

Turning the program culture around and bring the fan base together for the most part, Woody should get 10 million more a year. But Dolson's press release was about how we are winning. If 44-26, 2 NCAA bids and no Big Ten titles gets you a million after 2 seasons, I pray Woody bankrupts the Dept. before he leaves. I'll say it again, I love Woody and where the program is at. I see a final Four down the road if he hits on 24 and 25 classes. This years team to many question marks, we're going to find out what kind of a coach we have.

[FKIM01]

8 hours ago, Basketball Junkie said:

So they should get blown out by Rutgers?

Should lose at home to Northwestern?

Should get blown out by Penn St?

Should get blown out at home by Iowa?

You don't think they had more talent than those teams? 

 

You're cherry-picking.  Virtually every team in the country had surprising wins and inexplicable losses.  On the flip side of that, IU played pretty well against Purdue.  It happens and for a variety of reasons.  If you expect 100% predictable results from kids who are mostly too young to drink and are often thrust into roles they have limited experience with, I'd propose that your expectations are just a little beyond reasonable and a tad impatient.

I've personally witnessed two years of growth under a new coaching staff and system.  If we see a third year of progress on a pretty serious reload, I'd call that good.  Your expectations for IU last year appears to be eight losses, which is level with Kansas and the national champion and ahead of all the other power five teams on my list.  Nice, yes, but so is a season sweep of a one seed that until recently, had been eating IU's lunch for several agonizing years.

Would you be happier with those four wins and a Purdue sweep of IU?  I mean, that would be more in line with what we might expect.  I'd think a basketball junkie would realize that just about every team has both surprising wins and losses.  It's just how it is.  Not sure why IU fans are still agonizing over a few games lost last season and blaming Mike Woodson for what may be as much or more about injuries and lack of execution.

[FKIM01]

8 hours ago, Basketball Junkie said:

Possibly so, but the top end talent was very good. And the supporting cast was far from terrible. If so that doesn't bode well for this year.

Compare IU vs Purdue for a second. Even though I think TJD is far more talented than Edey I will consider those 2 equal. From there who had more talent? JHS is far better than anything Purdue had. Are Smith or Loyer far superior to Galloway? Are Furst or Gillis superior to Reneau? 

The fact that IU won both game vs them tells me the answer to those questions is no.

But Painter was able to get 15 wins out of what most anyone would say is a much less talented team.

Twas a far easier B10 schedule.

[Basketball Junkie]

3 hours ago, btownqb said:

I'm shocked I give more credit to XJ than you.  "Far more" 🤣🙄

If you cannot accept/admit someone that avg 11p-13p 5a 3r and is a great defender against quick guards was a MASSIVE missing piece.. that would be pretty confusing to me...

But, you thought we should have been a 2 seed even after XJ went down? Or more like a 4 seed... which we were?  You've not addressed that part of my post. 

Johnson is a good player. But certainly nowhere near the game changer, difference maker you want to believe.

But if you want to play the stats game then lets:

12p, 5 a, 3 r, and dont forget the 3 turnovers per game. Johnson as a 4th year player. For comparison sake how about:

11p, 2.5 a, 2 r and only 1 turnover per game. As a freshman.

Those are the numbers of the great Fletcher Loyer.

As for the seed this past year. I think 4 was pretty accurate. Of the 4 losses I mentioned that you claim would have been wins with Johnson 1 was a 15 point loss at Rutgers, 1 a 32 point loss at home to Iowa. So those most likely would  have not changed. Possibly the other 2 he would have turned to wins. But would there have also been wins turned to losses by his either foolish or selfish play? Would he have willingly deferred to JHS like TJD did or would he have forced to get his shots? Questions we don't know the answer for. But my guess is that a 4 seed was about right regardless.

[FKIM01]

8 hours ago, btownqb said:

But hey, high expectations are great. 

I have no quarrel with high expectations.  Hope springs eternal, after all. 

I'm just confused at fans going apoplectic when high expectations aren't met.

[Basketball Junkie]

3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

IU had enough talent to have won the NBA title, right @Basketball Junkie?

No, but enough to have fared better than they did.

[Basketball Junkie]

2 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Coach Shep, is that you?

Nope, but I don't turn a blind eye to reality either.

[Basketball Junkie]

9 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

You're cherry-picking.  Virtually every team in the country had surprising wins and inexplicable losses.  On the flip side of that, IU played pretty well against Purdue.  It happens and for a variety of reasons.  If you expect 100% predictable results from kids who are mostly too young to drink and are often thrust into roles they have limited experience with, I'd propose that your expectations are just a little beyond reasonable and a tad impatient.

I've personally witnessed two years of growth under a new coaching staff and system.  If we see a third year of progress on a pretty serious reload, I'd call that good.  Your expectations for IU last year appears to be eight losses, which is level with Kansas and the national champion and ahead of all the other power five teams on my list.  Nice, yes, but so is a season sweep of a one seed that until recently, had been eating IU's lunch for several agonizing years.

Would you be happier with those four wins and a Purdue sweep of IU?  I mean, that would be more in line with what we might expect.  I'd think a basketball junkie would realize that just about every team has both surprising wins and losses.  It's just how it is.  Not sure why IU fans are still agonizing over a few games lost last season and blaming Mike Woodson for what may be as much or more about injuries and lack of execution.

Granted. And yes I realize all of what you wrote. I don't deny progress has been made. But progress and underachievement can and IMO did happen in conjunction with each other. 

My expectations were not necessarily on a set number of losses. Rather to be in contention to win the conference. Finishing 3 games behind does not scream in contention to me.

No, I wouldn't have wished for either of those scenarios. I expected to win 2-3 of the games I mentioned and split with Purdue.

[btownqb]

26 minutes ago, Basketball Junkie said:

Johnson is a good player. But certainly nowhere near the game changer, difference maker you want to believe.

But if you want to play the stats game then lets:

12p, 5 a, 3 r, and dont forget the 3 turnovers per game. Johnson as a 4th year player. For comparison sake how about:

11p, 2.5 a, 2 r and only 1 turnover per game. As a freshman.

Those are the numbers of the great Fletcher Loyer.

As for the seed this past year. I think 4 was pretty accurate. Of the 4 losses I mentioned that you claim would have been wins with Johnson 1 was a 15 point loss at Rutgers, 1 a 32 point loss at home to Iowa. So those most likely would  have not changed. Possibly the other 2 he would have turned to wins. But would there have also been wins turned to losses by his either foolish or selfish play? Would he have willingly deferred to JHS like TJD did or would he have forced to get his shots? Questions we don't know the answer for. But my guess is that a 4 seed was about right regardless.

I never claimed they'd be wins. 

You've completely disregarded "what this team was missing" in all of your posts. 

I've not really seen XJ force shots at IU, so idk why he would just randomly start that? Selfish, again, that's a mighty loud OPINION. 

You brought up his FR years avgs and then compared him to Flether Loyer, a stand still shooter, below avg on the ball defender, who is also slow footed. I cannot think of a player in the B1G less like XJ than FL. 

[FKIM01]

8 minutes ago, Basketball Junkie said:

Granted. And yes I realize all of what you wrote. I don't deny progress has been made. But progress and underachievement can and IMO did happen in conjunction with each other. 

My expectations were not necessarily on a set number of losses. Rather to be in contention to win the conference. Finishing 3 games behind does not scream in contention to me.

No, I wouldn't have wished for either of those scenarios. I expected to win 2-3 of the games I mentioned and split with Purdue.

You and I probably differ on the definition of underachievement.  Unfortunately, every season since 1976 comes with disappointing losses.

On the subject of B10 championships, I think it's pretty well established that the unbalanced schedule plays a role almost every year.  I don't think you'll find anyone that will argue Purdue's B10 schedule was comparable to IU's.

...and that played a role IN Loyer's success.  XJ has a history of playing better as the season progresses, but the real difference between XJ and Loyer (aside from Loyer's easier schedule) is that Loyer really doesn't play much defense.  Frankly, he's probably not capable of much defense beyond serviceable and certainly nowhere remotely at XJ's level.

Finally, if you expected to win 2-3 games you listed and lose one of the Purdue games, we're really only 1-2 games apart.  The way this conversation started, I thought it was a lot more than that.

[Basketball Junkie]

9 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I never claimed they'd be wins. 

You've completely disregarded "what this team was missing" in all of your posts. 

I've not really seen XJ force shots at IU, so idk why he would just randomly start that? Selfish, again, that's a mighty loud OPINION. 

You brought up his FR years avgs and then compared him to Flether Loyer, a stand still shooter, below avg on the ball defender, who is also slow footed. I cannot think of a player in the B1G less like XJ than FL. 

"You do realize if we win those games... we're 27-8 and probably a 2 seed in the tourney? Which, if we had XJ.. thats exactly where I think we would have ended up... ish. "

And I used your stats. Which are from year #4 it appears.

I don't disagree that the 2 are far different. But looking at stats they seem very similar. No?

[btownqb]

4 minutes ago, Basketball Junkie said:

"You do realize if we win those games... we're 27-8 and probably a 2 seed in the tourney? Which, if we had XJ.. thats exactly where I think we would have ended up... ish. "

And I used your stats. Which are from year #4 it appears.

I don't disagree that the 2 are far different. But looking at stats they seem very similar. No?

"ish" I never said it would be THOSE games. I think we sweep NW, at minimum with XJ, for example. 

And, no.. Fletcher doesn't really seem like XJ at all. 

[Basketball Junkie]

13 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

You and I probably differ on the definition of underachievement.  Unfortunately, every season since 1976 comes with disappointing losses.

On the subject of B10 championships, I think it's pretty well established that the unbalanced schedule plays a role almost every year.  I don't think you'll find anyone that will argue Purdue's B10 schedule was comparable to IU's.

...and that played a role IN Loyer's success.  XJ has a history of playing better as the season progresses, but the real difference between XJ and Loyer (aside from Loyer's easier schedule) is that Loyer really doesn't play much defense.  Frankly, he's probably not capable of much defense beyond serviceable and certainly nowhere remotely at XJ's level.

Finally, if you expected to win 2-3 games you listed and lose one of the Purdue games, we're really only 1-2 games apart.  The way this conversation started, I thought it was a lot more than that.

Could be. I don't think last years team underachieved dramatically. And some of it may not even be the losses as much as it is the way they happened. I don't expect to lose by 30 at home to anyone, let alone Iowa. Or get to the tournament only to be ran out of the gym in the 2nd round.

I realize Johnson and Loyer are far different players. That was to show that throwing stats into a post does not show anywhere near the true story.

[btownqb]

10 hours ago, Basketball Junkie said:

Could be. I don't think last years team underachieved dramatically. And some of it may not even be the losses as much as it is the way they happened. I don't expect to lose by 30 at home to anyone, let alone Iowa. Or get to the tournament only to be ran out of the gym in the 2nd round.

I realize Johnson and Loyer are far different players. That was to show that throwing stats into a post does not show anywhere near the true story.

 

Hmm... what will tell the true story?

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by btownqb

[IUFLA]

10 hours ago, btownqb said:

I cannot think of a player in the B1G less like XJ than FL. 

Wilhelm Breidenbach...

Oh wait, he's not in the Big 10 any more... Nevermind 🙂

[IUFLA]

12 hours ago, Indykev said:

Turning the program culture around and bring the fan base together for the most part, Woody should get 10 million more a year. But Dolson's press release was about how we are winning. If 44-26, 2 NCAA bids and no Big Ten titles gets you a million after 2 seasons, I pray Woody bankrupts the Dept. before he leaves. I'll say it again, I love Woody and where the program is at. I see a final Four down the road if he hits on 24 and 25 classes. This years team to many question marks, we're going to find out what kind of a coach we have.

I'll just say this...

A cool million is a lot of money, but in the world of big time college athletics, it's chump change...Christ, we spent 10 X that dumping Archie Miller...

Your last line has a lot of truth to it, re actual coaching and not all of the window dressing that's entailed in D1 coaching duties...This team has scads of potential...But as we see in Kentucky, all of the talent in the world doesn't guarantee success...You gotta get them to reach that potential and play as a team...

[tdhoosier]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

A cool million is a lot of money, but in the world of big time college athletics, it's chump change...Christ, we spent 10 X that dumping Archie Miller...

 

I’ll also add…..

Not only is it not a lot of money to the Athletic department for our flagship sport, but debating whether or not he ‘deserves’ the money is secondary here, IMO. 

This is a ‘vote of confidence raise’. Is it a coincidence this is announced before we have, what, 10 top 50 recruits visiting in the next month? 

I know there’s disagreement over what a player is worth to a program, but if we land two of the recruits, it probably indirectly pays for Woody’s raise in terms of hype, getting nationally televised afternoon games on CBS, ratings, attendance, etc.  

I’m betting the rationale behind this - in the eyes of the Athletic Department - is spending money to make money. Spending money to increase chances of success. 

[IUFLA]

59 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I’ll also add…..

Not only is it not a lot of money to the Athletic department for our flagship sport, but debating whether or not he ‘deserves’ the money is secondary here, IMO. 

This is a ‘vote of confidence raise’. Is it a coincidence this is announced before we have, what, 10 top 50 recruits visiting in the next month? 

I know there’s disagreement over what a player is worth to a program, but if we land two of the recruits, it probably indirectly pays for Woody’s raise in terms of hype, getting nationally televised afternoon games on CBS, ratings, attendance, etc.  

I’m betting the rationale behind this - in the eyes of the Athletic Department - is spending money to make money. Spending money to increase chances of success. 

One other small, but important point...

Here's a list of the top 25 coaching salaries from last year...

Mike Woodson isn't on it...Kenny Payne is...

IU is big time basketball...You want to be viewed that way, you pay your coach top 10 money...

Edited August 21, 2023 by IUFLA

[Drroogh]

42 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

One other small, but important point...

Here's a list of the top 25 coaching salaries from last year...

Mike Woodson isn't on it...Kenny Payne is...

IU is big time basketball...You want to be viewed that way, you pay your coach top 10 money...

Not to mention 7 BIG coaches on the list not called coach Woodson?

[FKIM01]

4 hours ago, IUFLA said:

One other small, but important point...

Here's a list of the top 25 coaching salaries from last year...

Mike Woodson isn't on it...Kenny Payne is...

IU is big time basketball...You want to be viewed that way, you pay your coach top 10 money...

 

3 hours ago, Drroogh said:

Not to mention 7 BIG coaches on the list not called coach Woodson?

...and Illinois paying $4.6 million to coach Underwear when they can't even fund their pension obligation.  What a dumpster fire of a state.

[kyhoosier29]

16 hours ago, btownqb said:

I never claimed they'd be wins. 

You've completely disregarded "what this team was missing" in all of your posts. 

I've not really seen XJ force shots at IU, so idk why he would just randomly start that? Selfish, again, that's a mighty loud OPINION. 

You brought up his FR years avgs and then compared him to Flether Loyer, a stand still shooter, below avg on the ball defender, who is also slow footed. I cannot think of a player in the B1G less like XJ than FL. 

I’m not defending Junky or agreeing with his narrative, but XJ has definitely had games where he forced shots late in games that were detrimental. You could argue he didn’t have a choice, but he’s definitely had those moments of not playing within himself. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by kyhoosier29