Kdug Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: Genuine question? Do you think he tells Reneau to pass out of double teams? Credit to Reneau, even with double teams he shoots at an awfully high percentage. I think it's easy to settle because Reneau can get that bucket. I think even the announcers settle into this way of thinking too. I remember them saying last weekend: 'Indiana is not going to jump shoot their way back into this', but if we're going to be trading two's for three's that is going to be a long climb, not to mention we'd need to be remarkably efficient in a game we were already behind in. I think the issue with Malik vs double teams is that it seems like he turns it over a lot when doubled. If he manages to get a shot up, he is very efficient. But the turnovers negate that efficiency. I feel like he just needs to be a little bit better about not always forcing it. I also think trading twos for threes is fine as long as we’re getting our twos efficiently, getting to the line, and we’re defending the threes so they’re not efficient. On Saturday we failed at the last part of that equation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 22 minutes ago, BGleas said: I'm not getting into some big back and forth today. Just don't feel like it. I'll just say this. My post on MM being upset has more context to it than someone just being upset with that one Woodson quote. I have no idea how MM feels. My feeling on this is a "if I was him" feeling. The context is consistent with my opinion since the season started that MM isn't being utilized properly. My opinion is that he is a really good shooter that's not necessarily being put in positions offensively to be his most successful. With my consistent opinion on that as a backdrop, if I was MM I probably wouldn't love those comments from Woodson and might be a little upset or frustrated at the entire package. Have you ever heard about Mgbako getting upset about anything? 1 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: I don't know for sure, but he certainly taught it and asked TJD to... Much to our benefit... TJD was no doubt an excellent passer out of a double team. Maybe the best in the country, but he was this even during the stretch we were struggling. I felt we turned the corner when TJD was being used as a passer on the perimeter and being used more in the pick and roll - all when we took him out of the paint. Our offense just flowed better and we had less stagnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Kdug said: I think the issue with Malik vs double teams is that it seems like he turns it over a lot when doubled. If he manages to get a shot up, he is very efficient. But the turnovers negate that efficiency. I feel like he just needs to be a little bit better about not always forcing it. I also think trading twos for threes is fine as long as we’re getting our twos efficiently, getting to the line, and we’re defending the threes so they’re not efficient. On Saturday we failed at the last part of that equation. X 1000... He dribbles into the double team a lot like you say... I think Trayce learned that you could double him all you wanted but when he found Kopp or even Galloway for the 3 he was doing himself a favor by making the double teamer play honestly... Illinois found out the hard way what happened if you tried to play him straight up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, IUFLA said: So, again... If you were MM, why would you be mad? Woodson didn't invoke your name... He was talking whole team at 28%... Not you specifically... I'm not for a back and forth either, but I personally don't understand why it was an issue with either of you in the first place... Because he supposed to be a shooter and scorer, and it's my opinion that IU isn't utilizing that skill he has to the best of it's ability. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, Kdug said: I think the issue with Malik vs double teams is that it seems like he turns it over a lot when doubled. If he manages to get a shot up, he is very efficient. But the turnovers negate that efficiency. I feel like he just needs to be a little bit better about not always forcing it. I also think trading twos for threes is fine as long as we’re getting our twos efficiently, getting to the line, and we’re defending the threes so they’re not efficient. On Saturday we failed at the last part of that equation. For the record, I'm definitely not advocating he should not be passing out of double teams. I'm just wondering what Woody is telling him. You'd think if Woody is telling him to pass out of double teams, then he'd be passing out of double teams more frequently. I'm not sure he's being told this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: TJD was no doubt an excellent passer out of a double team. Maybe the best in the country, but he was this even during the stretch we were struggling. I felt we turned the corner when TJD was being used as a passer on the perimeter and being used more in the pick and roll - all when we took him out of the paint. Our offense just flowed better and we had less stagnation. I agree with that, and I'll add that there were times he'd get the ball near the post and then dribble out of the double team to the perimeter... I think that had to be something the coaching staff taught and emphasized... A lot of times Malik dribbles toward the double, not away from it... Edited December 13, 2023 by IUFLA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdug Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: For the record, I'm definitely not advocating he should not be passing out of double teams. I'm just wondering what Woody is telling him. You'd think if Woody is telling him to pass out of double teams, then he'd be passing out of double teams more frequently. I'm not sure he's being told this. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a hard and fast rule like do or don’t pass out of doubles. It’s about reading the defense. I just don’t think Malik is very good at reading what the defense is doing yet, whereas TJD was excellent at it last year. But Malik is in his first year as a starter, so hopefully we’ll see some growth in that area. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdug Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, IUFLA said: X 1000... He dribbles into the double team a lot like you say... I think Trayce learned that you could double him all you wanted but when he found Kopp or even Galloway for the 3 he was doing himself a favor by making the double teamer play honestly... Illinois found out the hard way what happened if you tried to play him straight up The Illinois game is a great example. I think Malik is skilled enough where he could have a dominating performance like that, depending on the matchup, if teams played him straight up. The issue is teams aren’t going to try that until he proves he can beat them by passing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, Kdug said: I just don’t think Malik is very good at reading what the defense is doing yet, Bingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, Kdug said: I don’t think there’s ever going to be a hard and fast rule like do or don’t pass out of doubles. It’s about reading the defense. I just don’t think Malik is very good at reading what the defense is doing yet, whereas TJD was excellent at it last year. But Malik is in his first year as a starter, so hopefully we’ll see some growth in that area. Then you don't put him into those situations by having our first 3 looks be into the post. I'm not saying you have to abandon it, but don't do it so frequently. If you want to play inside/out, then the ball has to make it outside. Otherwise it's just inside/inside. I'm ultimately arguing that we need more diversity in the offense (that includes perimeter play) because it's going to open things up on the interior and it's going to give our guards more opportunities to take good shots and/or drives, which will develop their confidence. Confidence turns into consistency. And we need tape of this play, to recruit more guards. We won't be getting any shooters if our interior is the equivalent of a black hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: Then what should I assume? You were trying to portray his words in a positive light? Both you and @BGleas thought it was something he shouldn't have said, right? Why? He didn't call anyone out personally... He made a comment based on our performance so far... And he was right... Own your words for once rather than playing this BS game of trying to prove you're smarter than everyone else... Just assume people that are big IU fans are talking about IU, don't assume anyone is rooting against IU or looking for bad things. It really isn't that hard. I don't assume you secretly want IU to stay mediocre because you have different standards than I do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: I'm not for a back and forth either, but I personally don't understand why it was an issue with either of you in the first place... Define issue? It's probably not something I would have spent even the amount of time on that I already have if you hadn't done what you always do when anyone says something other than "Mike Woodson is the coolest". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 hour ago, KoB2011 said: Define issue? It's probably not something I would have spent even the amount of time on that I already have if you hadn't done what you always do when anyone says something other than "Mike Woodson is the coolest". Ok then... Stop with the ginned up drama... How's that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Ok then... Stop with the ginned up drama... How's that? I’m trying to stop the drama, I’ve said several times we are just trying to discuss basketball and you (plus a few others) won’t let that happen for some reason. If I didn’t know better, I’d say you’re a Purdue troll trying to stir up crap on an IU board and getting folks to settle for mediocrity. What else am I supposed to assume based on your posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I’m trying to stop the drama "HE MIGHT TRANSFER!" 5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: If I didn’t know better, I’d say you’re a Purdue troll trying to stir up crap on an IU board and getting folks to settle for mediocrity. What else am I supposed to assume based on your posts? I'm not the one swingin' on @Stlboiler23's junk at the drop of a hat... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Just now, IUFLA said: "HE MIGHT TRANSFER!" I'm not the one swingin' on @Stlboiler23's junk at the drop of a hat... I knew you had some weird fantasies, PUFLA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Malik is second in assists on the season with 25, just behind Galloway with 28. He's averaging 2.8 per game. XJ is at 2.3 and Cupps is at 1.6. Even with the TO's, we're basically using him as a point forward because he draws doubles. His recognition needs to be better, but him making an interior pass or fighting through a double team is currently a higher scoring probability than throwing it out to the perimeter for a missed jumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 46 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said: Malik is second in assists on the season with 25, just behind Galloway with 28. He's averaging 2.8 per game. XJ is at 2.3 and Cupps is at 1.6. Even with the TO's, we're basically using him as a point forward because he draws doubles. His recognition needs to be better, but him making an interior pass or fighting through a double team is currently a higher scoring probability than throwing it out to the perimeter for a missed jumper. We aren't hitting anywhere close to a high enough percentage of our 3's to justify Malik giving up a 65% opportunity of 2. And, factor in the fouls he draws, it makes the benefit if kicking out even less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyhoosier29 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: We aren't hitting anywhere close to a high enough percentage of our 3's to justify Malik giving up a 65% opportunity of 2. And, factor in the fouls he draws, it makes the benefit if kicking out even less. We aren’t hitting a high enough percentage because they don’t get a lot of open looks. Maybe if MR was kicking it out when he should we’d be hitting at a higher clip. 🤷🏻♂️ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 41 minutes ago, kyhoosier29 said: We aren’t hitting a high enough percentage because they don’t get a lot of open looks. Maybe if MR was kicking it out when he should we’d be hitting at a higher clip. 🤷🏻♂️ I would add that Malik averages 3 turnovers a game. That leads the team. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, rico said: I would add that Malik averages 3 turnovers a game. That leads the team. Yup.... say Malik kicks it out 6 extra times per game to an open shooter. We might make 2 of those threes, and rebound one of the four misses. Surely that is better than Malik making two out to three shots and turning it over three times, right? That is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it, but we can get more out of Malik. He's been probably our second best player so far this year, but we need more from him if we are going to make the improvements we need. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 50 minutes ago, kyhoosier29 said: We aren’t hitting a high enough percentage because they don’t get a lot of open looks. Maybe if MR was kicking it out when he should we’d be hitting at a higher clip. 🤷🏻♂️ Based on what we've seen when they have had open looks, while it may improve slightly, it's not going to get high enough to offset 65%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Based on what we've seen when they have had open looks, while it may improve slightly, it's not going to get high enough to offset 65%. I dunno. If he kicks out instead of turning it over it opens up the paint for Malik? Assuming the fellas knock down some those open look 3s. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Based on what we've seen when they have had open looks, while it may improve slightly, it's not going to get high enough to offset 65%. I don't necessarily agree. I don't think it's fair to assume an offense that does a better job of generating open looks and inspiring confidence will shoot the same percentage. I actually think assuming it would result in the same percentage is a major discredit to some of the great coaches in basketball. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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