Coach Mike Woodson Megathread

[BGleas]

4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I admittedly drank the kool-aid on the whole idea that Mgbako could be a 3. He’s improved a lot this year, but he’s being forced to defend on the perimeter more, and that’s not where he’s comfortable. If his defensive assignments were opposing 4’s I think he’d be in foul trouble a lot less and he’d have more rebounds. On the other end, he’d pull defenders out of the paint. 

If I’m being honest - and i hate saying this - it’s Malik that doesn’t fit. I think he thinks he’s a 4 and Woody thinks he’s a 4 because why else are we searching for another 5? I think Malik is a 5 who’s not good at rebounding. The sooner this can be accepted, the better the chance we may turn the corner. 

Completely agree on Reneau. I can't remember if I posted this publicly last offseason, but definitely traded PM's with some folks, that Reneau was a worry for me heading into the season in terms of fit. 

He's a square peg in a round hole on this roster. 

Don't get me wrong, he seems like a phenomenal kid/person and is an extremely talented and skilled offensive player. 

With that said, I'm not sure yet if he's a "winning" player. His comp reminds me of Julius Randle at the NBA level. 

Randle has a ton of talent, is extremely skilled offensively, but takes a ton of shots, doesn't play good D, and frankly while he is talented and a 2-time All-Star, I'd hate it if my Celtics acquired him. 

[dgambill]

3 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I admittedly drank the kool-aid on the whole idea that Mgbako could be a 3. He’s improved a lot this year, but he’s being forced to defend on the perimeter more, and that’s not where he’s comfortable. If his defensive assignments were opposing 4’s I think he’d be in foul trouble a lot less and he’d have more rebounds. On the other end, he’d pull defenders out of the paint. 

If I’m being honest - and i hate saying this - it’s Malik that doesn’t fit. I think he thinks he’s a 4 and Woody thinks he’s a 4 because why else are we searching for another 5? I think Malik is a 5 who’s not good at rebounding. The sooner this can be accepted, the better the chance we may turn the corner. 

Malik poor rebounding is even worse when he is not a shot blocker to add to that. Ware is at least a rim protector that will pull him away from his rebounding position but Malik gives you none of that. Playing the 4 also puts him out on the perimeter entirely too much where he gets beat off the dribble and doesn’t move his feet and fouls. The twin tower thing just doesn’t work. The only reason it was decent last year was because of Race’s energy on the boards and his ability to move his feet on the perimeter in defending. This year it’s been an absolute fail….and I hope we learned our lesson.

[Seeking6]

Thanks gang for all the replies minus the one that called me a troll if I think IU should keep Woodson. I guess if it's a point someone agrees with that sort of response is allowed? Just making sure I keep up with moving goalposts on forum decorum.

Appreciate (almost all) level headed responses. I'm still in Woodson's corner. Not popular I know but that's where I am when I factor in all layers to the onion from recruiting to development to we can't just keep hiring and firing along with several other things.

 

[Seeking6]

8 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Completely agree on Reneau. I can't remember if I posted this publicly last offseason, but definitely traded PM's with some folks, that Reneau was a worry for me heading into the season in terms of fit. 

He's a square peg in a round hole on this roster. 

Don't get me wrong, he seems like a phenomenal kid/person and is an extremely talented and skilled offensive player. 

With that said, I'm not sure yet if he's a "winning" player. His comp reminds me of Julius Randle at the NBA level. 

Randle has a ton of talent, is extremely skilled offensively, but takes a ton of shots, doesn't play good D, and frankly while he is talented and a 2-time All-Star, I'd hate it if my Celtics acquired him. 

This is something I struggle with. I LOVE Malik and his development from last year to this year is really good...but I also hesitate with him because with him in the lineup it forces a few things. I'll also add that yesterday I think Galloway called a timeout in frustration because MM and KW still weren't in the right spots....and we're approaching March. 

That whole area is clogged. 

[HPER Smooth]

I can deal with missed recruits, a down year and even bad losses. I've seen great coaches have terrible years.

But when a team get's worse every game, there's an internal problem. When a coach doesn't have any answers, adjustments, or excitement, the kids lose hope. Woodson has lost the team. There is no help on the way, and he is too stubborn to change or hire talented assistants. And he simply doesn't have the schematic tool box to adjust to a different roster every year.

It's time to move on.

[FWIUFan]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Another thing that doesn't make sense for the "XJ and Galloway meant we couldn't add another guard" stance, is how did we add Reneau when we already had TJD and Race?

How did we add Michael Durr when we already had TJD and Race?

How did we add Walker and Sparks when we already had Ware and Reneau?

There wasn't a guard that can shoot anywhere willing to come in and compete for minutes? 

 

I had the same thoughts as you re:  above lack of recruiting.

I have nothing personal against CMW.  I just see no evidence he is a capable college coach.

I am weary of this constant refrain that CMW "deserves" another year.  If you have ever ran a business you understand the concept of productivity and responsibility.  CMW has the responsibility and is paid handsomely to put a premier BB product on the floor.  He has not been successful, therefore a determination whether he is the best person to continue or  hire a more viable replacement who can.

After viewing the last 3 seasons, the video on the systems CMW ran while coaching the Knicks that have been posted here, and the lack of ANY  adjustments or insight that adjustments are warranted, the only conclusion I can come to is that nothing will ever change so long as CMW remains. His systems, lack of recruiting, lack of introspection, and unchanging attitude is not compatible with any future success for IUBB.  

[tdhoosier]

4 minutes ago, dgambill said:

and I hope we learned our lesson.

This is our only saving grace. 

If Woody stays, we’ll know our answer probably by June, depending on who we pick up in the portal and who we go after. 

My concern is that Woody will have no problem getting a highly ranked big, because what big doesn’t want to play in this offense when they are touching the ball at an obscenely high rate? And we’ll take him because it’s easy. And we’ll have to play him because he’s talented. We’ll continue putting up a low volume 3’s and we’ll continue to compete at a mathematical disadvantage. It’s going to be a never ending cycle. 

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

This is something I struggle with. I LOVE Malik and his development from last year to this year is really good...but I also hesitate with him because with him in the lineup it forces a few things. I'll also add that yesterday I think Galloway called a timeout in frustration because MM and KW still weren't in the right spots....and we're approaching March. 

That whole area is clogged. 

Yeah, Reneau is just a tough case. Like you said, he has improved so much, and he's incredibly skilled offensively. 

I just don't know how you win with him? He's not a good enough rebounder or defender to be a 5 all season, especially in the Big Ten. 

But he's also a really bad fit at the 4 in a 2-big lineup in the modern basketball, and is also a liability as a rebounder and defensive player at the 4. 

While being extremely skilled offensively, at the 4 he clogs the land, and in general he forces a lot of shots and isn't a willing passer. 

Again, he seems like a phenomenal person and has a ton of skill, just not sure you can win with him long term. 

[NCHoosier32]

39 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

Sorry if this has already been posted, I found this interesting…

 

Help us Mark Cuban.  You're our only hope.  

[dgambill]

5 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

This is our only saving grace. 

If Woody stays, we’ll know our answer probably by June, depending on who we pick up in the portal and who we go after. 

My concern is that Woody will have no problem getting a highly ranked big, because what big doesn’t want to play in this offense when they are touching the ball at an obscenely high rate? And we’ll take him because it’s easy. And we’ll have to play him because he’s talented. We’ll continue putting up a low volume 3’s and we’ll continue to compete at a mathematical disadvantage. It’s going to be a never ending cycle. 

If I’m a big I want to play in an offense with a ton of talented shooters….that spaces the floor and eliminates double teams and opens up the post for me to work….same goes for shooters…as a big draws attention and double teams and the easiest 3 in basketball is the kickout three imo.  Its simple complimentary basketball.

[NCHoosier32]

29 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I admittedly drank the kool-aid on the whole idea that Mgbako could be a 3. He’s improved a lot this year, but he’s being forced to defend on the perimeter more, and that’s not where he’s comfortable. If his defensive assignments were opposing 4’s I think he’d be in foul trouble a lot less and he’d have more rebounds. On the other end, he’d pull defenders out of the paint. 

If I’m being honest - and i hate saying this - it’s Malik that doesn’t fit. I think he thinks he’s a 4 and Woody thinks he’s a 4 because why else are we searching for another 5? I think Malik is a 5 who’s not good at rebounding. The sooner this can be accepted, the better the chance we may turn the corner. 

i had my doubts, but said that if we were going to be good he would need to be a 3 and good enough to be our leading scorer.  i knew he would be playing the 3 come hell or highwater.  if he could have made a quick transition to it and been a big time scorer...

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, HoosierDom said:

I have a really hard time believing that any top kid was scared to come in and compete with Galloway. At the very least, there was plenty of room for a guard to come in and get back-up minutes at both the 1 and the 2 - likely even the 3, depending on the kid.

Galloway should be coming off the bench…he is an energy guy…lock down defender, instant spark plug…he plays too hard and honestly at his best in more limited minutes….love the kid but that is who he is and should be.

[tdhoosier]

10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Yeah, Reneau is just a tough case. Like you said, he has improved so much, and he's incredibly skilled offensively. 

I just don't know how you win with him? He's not a good enough rebounder or defender to be a 5 all season, especially in the Big Ten. 

But he's also a really bad fit at the 4 in a 2-big lineup in the modern basketball, and is also a liability as a rebounder and defensive player at the 4. 

While being extremely skilled offensively, at the 4 he clogs the land, and in general he forces a lot of shots and isn't a willing passer. 

Again, he seems like a phenomenal person and has a ton of skill, just not sure you can win with him long term. 

Good points. 

An interesting hypothetical question though…

IF there is a coaching change, what does he do with Malik? It’d be very interesting how the whole situation would play out.

[BGleas]

Shared this via PM with a poster, but figured I'd share here too. 

We have some posters that are more pro-coach than others, meaning they prefer to give coaches more time to turn things around and don't love the constant coaching turnover. 

I used to lean more that way. I defended Crean and Archie longer than many did. If I remember, I don't think I was "fire Archie" until February of his last season. 

So, why am I quicker to the "fire Woodson" bandwagon? You'd think an IU guy should get more leeway, right? Especially since he got us to B2B tournaments. 

Two main reasons. 1) I'm just tired of being mediocre. I'm tired of losing, etc., but...

2) I feel with Woodson we've had a bit of a bait and switch on his system/style. I just don't trust him to turn it around. 

I didn't love Archie's system either. But Archie owned his system. We knew what it was and what we were getting, so I had a sense that if "he could just get 'his' guys" in his system we'd be OK. 

Crean had a system too. It had its flaws as well, but he had some proven success with it, and we knew when recruited too right we could win. 

My opinion is that Woodson hasn't been upfront (I'd don't mean purposely lying or anything) with what his system or style is. I'm not sure he knows what it is. 

So, without college experience and some of the other trends and issues, I frankly just don't trust him to turn this around. 

I'm ready for a change and think it needs to happen this offseason. 

[IU Scott]

31 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Thanks gang for all the replies minus the one that called me a troll if I think IU should keep Woodson. I guess if it's a point someone agrees with that sort of response is allowed? Just making sure I keep up with moving goalposts on forum decorum.

Appreciate (almost all) level headed responses. I'm still in Woodson's corner. Not popular I know but that's where I am when I factor in all layers to the onion from recruiting to development to we can't just keep hiring and firing along with several other things.

 

Can I ask you what have you seen in these three years that Woodson is the answer and should keep his job.

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Good points. 

An interesting hypothetical question though…

IF there is a coaching change, what does he do with Malik? It’d be very interesting how the whole situation would play out.

If I was taking over this program, I'd have to think long and hard about whether I'd want to keep Reneau. 

Again, a great kid and immensely talented offensively, just not sure I can win with him. 

[Seeking6]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Can I ask you what have you seen in these three years that Woodson is the answer and should keep his job.

I can't offer up anything more than what's been hashed and rehashed. I think he took TJD from having to learn a foreign language to making him by some accounts the steal of the draft. I see what he did with JHS. I saw the peak of Xavier towards end of 22.....I see what Trey has developed into.

I also know there are several recruits and their families who love Woodson....so I'm factoring in that to my opinion as well.

Again I've said this before. I'm more Pro Coach. Any Coach. 

[IUDan93]

1 hour ago, OGIUAndy said:

?? UK had 7 players in the NBA All Star game this year. They last won a championship in 2012. IU hasn't been a consistently good program since the 90s. But Calipari is the poster boy for mediocrity and doing less with more than anyone in the country. 

I actually didn't mean to post this. I got called away and didn't finish my point.  I am not comparing coaches, but programs. Ultimately, IU's resume over the last 20 years is, by far, the worst resume for a program that has our level of fanbase, money, facilities, state in which to recruit, etc. UK has had better players, and have under-achieved, but we should be able to compete with them for players. We haven't.  I wish Crean, Miller, and Woodson were run out of town because we weren't winning championships, not because we only have 11 tournament wins in 10 appearances since we played in the finals in 2002, with only three Sweet 16 games that we are 0-3 in. Contrast this with UK's resume: 41 tourney wins, 4 Finals Fours, 9 Elite Eights, 10 Sweet Sixteens, and 17 tourney appearances. If they are doing less with more than us, than we have to say that they have way more than us as a program, meaning that they are a better program than us.

[Threedom]

22 minutes ago, dgambill said:

If I’m a big I want to play in an offense with a ton of talented shooters….that spaces the floor and eliminates double teams and opens up the post for me to work….same goes for shooters…as a big draws attention and double teams and the easiest 3 in basketball is the kickout three imo.  Its simple complimentary basketball.

This is so true, and exactly why I was so disappointed in the Syracuse loss.  I felt that team had enough of everything to go far, maybe win it all.
 

unfortunately we were confused on the first offensive possession.  Sorry for the trigger of opportunity lost. 

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

If I was taking over this program, I'd have to think long and hard about whether I'd want to keep Reneau. 

Again, a great kid and immensely talented offensively, just not sure I can win with him. 

I would say if there is a coaching change you will see Reneau in the portal. I know we hate DD but I do believe him when he says there are players who are just good enough to get you fired. Meaning the AD see the players talent but can't understand why you aren't winning with him.

[IowaHoosierFan]

37 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Galloway should be coming off the bench…he is an energy guy…lock down defender, instant spark plug…he plays too hard and honestly at his best in more limited minutes….love the kid but that is who he is and should be.

 Is Trey a lock down defender though?

[HoosierFaithful]

58 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Thanks gang for all the replies minus the one that called me a troll if I think IU should keep Woodson. I guess if it's a point someone agrees with that sort of response is allowed? Just making sure I keep up with moving goalposts on forum decorum.

Appreciate (almost all) level headed responses. I'm still in Woodson's corner. Not popular I know but that's where I am when I factor in all layers to the onion from recruiting to development to we can't just keep hiring and firing along with several other things.

 

Feel free to use the report button or PM a mod with any concerns. The same as it has always been. These threads can move quickly and we all have other things going on in our lives too. 

[IndyResident16]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

At this point you just have to believe that this is what Woodson wants the team to look like, and I don't like that. 

Yet you’re on record multiple times saying that Woodson has “earned” a 4th year??

[IndyResident16]

2 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

I’m more concerned that guards looked at how the offense is ran and simply said: ‘nope’.

If it really was a ‘minutes issue’ it’s not because of Trey and X. It’s because Woody plays 2 bigs at the same time. Woody’s old school line-ups eat up the minutes for potential guards because only 2 guards/wings are on the floor at the same time. MM should be a 4 (with Walker as a back up) and we should have 3 guards/wings on the floor. If he does that, then there will magically be more minutes for a guard transfer. But he doesn’t.

And it’s his line up history that will haunt us again this off-season. Bet. It’s already been rumored he’s going to go after another 5, now that he missed on Queen. 

4 out/1 in, my arse. 

JHS committed to IU on 8/24/21. In the 30 months since, Woodson has landed 2 guards: 1 is a fringe-level B10 player and the other may never play basketball again. That’s a fireable offense alone in today’s climate.

Edited February 25 by IndyResident16

[IndyResident16]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Another thing that doesn't make sense for the "XJ and Galloway meant we couldn't add another guard" stance, is how did we add Reneau when we already had TJD and Race?

How did we add Michael Durr when we already had TJD and Race?

How did we add Walker and Sparks when we already had Ware and Reneau?

There wasn't a guard that can shoot anywhere willing to come in and compete for minutes? 

 

It’s a total cop out. I illustrated earlier in this thread the crowded backcourt Dalton Knecht walked into at Tennessee. Tennessee’s returning backcourt was light years better than our returning backcourt.