tdhoosier Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Euroclydon said: IU relies on individual efforts to score. It's not so much an offense built on guys with roles set to get the best shot. It's more of an option 1 TJD and if he can't create move to option 2 to see if he can create, and so on. We talk a lot about Wisconsin's system. The reason they don't need elite recruits is they play with a specific idea of moving the ball and their players to get the easiest shot possible and then lock in on D. MSU crashes the boards and runs to get a layup or open three and if that doesn't work they run an offense to get the best shot possible. Then they play tough D. IU has neither working right now. The reason IU looks so out of sorts on offense against better teams is they really don't seem to know how to get an easy shot for anyone. It comes down to a 1x1 move. The open shots they do get, there's no proof they will hit them. When X is running the offense they look better and his ability to beat his man off the dribble opens up a lot of opportunities, but at the end of the day it's still individuals having to work really hard to get a good shot. And the D has fallen apart and looks completely lost. Confidence is gone. You can see it on their faces. Either someone steps up or they can call it a season. I suggest over a week ago it may be time to invest in the young guys who will be here next season, but with the portal you have no idea who that will be. Nicely laid out. Woody is going to need to realize at some point that this is college bball and he’s going to have to hold hands/micro manage. He doesn’t have the talent to run whatever he’s trying to do. It was obvious before the injuries. Now, when more talent is removed/not at 100% you can see how the foundation was built on a house of cards. It was also painfully obvious last year when he made those mass substitutions to the lesser talented 2nd line up. Our last 3 coaches sure seem like they enjoy jamming square pegs into round holes. I just want to see a coach who can coach to their personnel. Not the other way around. Edited January 12, 2023 by tdhoosier 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 minute ago, KoB2011 said: I disagree with this, no program is doing what they did 25 years ago to be successful. The game has changed. If we want the same methods now that we used 25 years ago we aren’t going to get the results we want. I am not necessarily saying you have to do accountability like Bob Knight, but you have to do accountability. I am not saying you have to enforce the idea that you are going to practice hard like Bob Knight, but you have to enforce practicing hard. You don't have to scream to get guys to work towards perfection, but you have to get them to work towards perfection. The methods may change a bit and the psychology to motivate may change a bit, but we were a lunch pail program. A system program. A program greater than the sum of its parts. In order to be that there are certain things you HAVE to do. That has not changed and will not change. What has changed is that our work hard program that used to beat the hell out of more talented but less prepared programs has now become the more talented and less prepared program that gets beat by the blue collar ethic teams. The fans, the hype, the history all point to the program being one thing while the reality is that it is something totally different. Stop calling back to what Knight was if you aren't going to truly honor the underlying themes of what he aggressively preached. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 6 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: I am not necessarily saying you have to do accountability like Bob Knight, but you have to do accountability. I am not saying you have to enforce the idea that you are going to practice hard like Bob Knight, but you have to enforce practicing hard. You don't have to scream to get guys to work towards perfection, but you have to get them to work towards perfection. The methods may change a bit and the psychology to motivate may change a bit, but we were a lunch pail program. A system program. A program greater than the sum of its parts. In order to be that there are certain things you HAVE to do. That has not changed and will not change. What has changed is that our work hard program that used to beat the hell out of more talented but less prepared programs has now become the more talented and less prepared program that gets beat by the blue collar ethic teams. The fans, the hype, the history all point to the program being one thing while the reality is that it is something totally different. Stop calling back to what Knight was if you aren't going to truly honor the underlying themes of what he aggressively preached. I agree we need to work to become a program that is a greater sum than it's parts, but I disagree that we haven't always had great parts. The high levels players aren't new - that's a huge part of our rich history. We've always gotten elite talent, if anything we get less of it now than we used to. That said, I think if we are looking back through history at one of the defining things in our programs history in terms of the "mindset" of the program, it's probably when Dane Fife and company led a mutiny to ensure Mike Davis was our head coach. That's neither here nor there, other than the fact that in this thread we've got folks still yearning for Fife and promoting him as some linchpin to the history of IU basketball that Woody is apparently not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 This Coach Woodson talk is just silly and honestly embarrassing. This is year 1.25 on the job. Our recruiting commits haven't been this good in years. The season to date hasn't gone our way but since the people who think Woodson needs to go can't hear well I'll say it again....he's down 40% of his starting roster. Guess what?? That impacts things. Geez with the new coach talk.... 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftheref Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, EvilleHoosier said: I think the last question was about the over-helping and Woodson said the players must think that is playing aggressive defense and guys were doings things they didn't go over in practice or the walkthrough. Pair that with TJD's comments after the Northwestern game, about guys not following the game plan, and it doesn't sound too good. Ineffective coaching! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: This Coach Woodson talk is just silly and honestly embarrassing. This is year 1.25 on the job. Our recruiting commits haven't been this good in years. The season to date hasn't gone our way but since the people who think Woodson needs to go can't hear well I'll say it again....he's down 40% of his starting roster. Guess what?? That impacts things. Geez with the new coach talk.... We have enough pieces, without XJ and RT, to not look as completely inept as we do. Seriously, this post is ground hog day. You could pick it up and drop it in the Davis, Sampson, Crean, and Miller eras and it would fit right in. Woodson and staff are absolutely doing a piss poor job right now. The team he puts on the court is fundamentally a mess and that has nothing to do with injuries. He may improve but right now he sucks. There is nothing on court you can point to that says, "Well run team". Nothing. Our offense is predicated on one on one moves going down a list and our defense is non-existent. If you absolutely need players and the coach doesn't matter, hire me for 50% of what Woodson makes. I will make sure we throw anything we need out to get players, roll the ball on the court, smoke a cigar, and cash my check. Northwestern, Penn State, Purdue, Wisconsin...coaching matters, stop making up excuses for ours. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 7 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: This Coach Woodson talk is just silly and honestly embarrassing. This is year 1.25 on the job. Our recruiting commits haven't been this good in years. The season to date hasn't gone our way but since the people who think Woodson needs to go can't hear well I'll say it again....he's down 40% of his starting roster. Guess what?? That impacts things. Geez with the new coach talk.... Woodson's support was a mile wide, but only an inch deep. For most of the fan base, it was a meh hire. Any team would be affected by the injuries that this team has experienced. However, if the team was executing well, but just outmatched on personnel, that would be one thing. But even Woodson said the players look lost. I watched part of the MSU/WI game with Wisky playing without Wahl (pretty much the equivalent if TJD was out as far as importance to their team). MSU won a close game. But it was a close, hard fought game. WI was connected on defense, but MSU made shots and plays down the stretch. I think a lot of fans could live with that, given the injuries. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 20 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: This Coach Woodson talk is just silly and honestly embarrassing. This is year 1.25 on the job. Our recruiting commits haven't been this good in years. The season to date hasn't gone our way but since the people who think Woodson needs to go can't hear well I'll say it again....he's down 40% of his starting roster. Guess what?? That impacts things. Geez with the new coach talk.... Before the season, if I asked the board to pick 1 of the following at each position, the results would have been extremely one-sided. Preseason, the edge would have been 4-0-1 with the tie being Kopp v Morton TJD v Edey Race v Gilles/Furst Kopp v Morton JHS v Loyer XJ v Smith Now, even before the injuries, the right side was outperforming the left. Fast forward to the injuries. Replace Race with JG/MR Replace XJ with Galloway/Bates But, for the sake of the point, assume the injuries happened BEFORE the season. Preseason, we may have called JG/MR v Gilles/Furst a tie or slightly favor Purdue. Preseason, we still would have taken Galloway/Bates over Smith. The point is we, as fans, set expectations based on 'parts' that are determined by ranking and star rating. We, IU fans, have the UK mentality that if we have a starting lineup made up of Top 30 players, we would be unbeatable. Guess what, games are won by a TEAM, not the sum of individual parts. Who is responsible for getting the TEAM to mesh together? The coaches. I'm not singling out Woodson, because no head coach can do it on his own. I am, however, holding the coaching staff responsible for having the talent we supposedly have and playing like the worst team in the league. Why is Purdue better without Ivey? The same reason IU is struggling right now. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) My Mom, like a lot of mother's, always said "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything." Well, sorry Mom. And this isn't directed at the team, or the coaches, or even the administration... It's about some of you... I think they should change the name of this place to "Tim Weaver's Hoosier Sports Nation." I sincerely hope that if you have friends or family who are at a low point, you don't treat them like this. Nor would I want you to suffer scorn and derision if you were at a low point. But it's not about the team to some of you. It's about how you feel after a game like last night's. Screw the players and the coaching staff who basically live to satisfy your feelings. I mean Mike Woodson has a million times more of an investment in Indiana basketball than any of us do. Yeah, he don't care 🙄 Do you honestly think Coach Woodson told the freshmen to throw the ball away 4 straight times? He did remove Malik from the game after his second straight, so it's not like he's not trying to hold people accountable. As @Seeking6said, he's a year and a half into his tenure. Talk of his removal is not only premature, it's embarrassing... I don't mind criticism of play... Sometimes it's warranted. Respectful analysis is always a welcome sight as far as I'm concerned. But we've lost 2 of these games by a total of 3 points without or 2nd and 3rd best players. Last night we just got a good, old fashioned ass whupping on the road by a senior laden team that shot 60% from 3 point land. To be fair, some of that was because of our defense, but they also hit more than a few tough ones. If you're going to go overboard at the first sign of trouble, don't bother to revel when this team triumphs. If the internet existed in 1981, I could just see some of the comments after we lost to Texas-Rio Grande Valley... You'd wrap yourself in the banner at the end though... These kids don't deserve some of the over the top stuff. I get why they clap back. Me? I'll stick by them to the end... Edited January 12, 2023 by IUFLA 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyhoosier29 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 45 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: This Coach Woodson talk is just silly and honestly embarrassing. This is year 1.25 on the job. Our recruiting commits haven't been this good in years. The season to date hasn't gone our way but since the people who think Woodson needs to go can't hear well I'll say it again....he's down 40% of his starting roster. Guess what?? That impacts things. Geez with the new coach talk.... I think it’s more about being disappointed in Woody’s perceived inability to make adjustments or change anything over the last 2.5 games. I’m disappointed in him, but I’m like “whatever” at this point. Don’t know what I want or what I think is the best idea. Befuddled that PSU is a 3 point shooting team and we gave them open look after open look last night (that’s not a talent problem). And it didn’t change from half to half. That to me is elementary, so was it even addressed or addressed but not executed by the whole team? My response is more “wtf is going on” in a tone of amazement, not anger. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmhoosier Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 35 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said: Woodson's support was a mile wide, but only an inch deep. For most of the fan base, it was a meh hire. Any team would be affected by the injuries that this team has experienced. However, if the team was executing well, but just outmatched on personnel, that would be one thing. But even Woodson said the players look lost. I watched part of the MSU/WI game with Wisky playing without Wahl (pretty much the equivalent if TJD was out as far as importance to their team). MSU won a close game. But it was a close, hard fought game. WI was connected on defense, but MSU made shots and plays down the stretch. I think a lot of fans could live with that, given the injuries. You kind of hit the nail on the head. The problem is that every hire has been a meh hire for most of the fan base. I was listening to Jay Williams on ESPN the day after Woody was hired (his wife is an IU grad). He was talking about his in laws and how disappointed they were in the hire. That's always been the problem. The administration never gives the fans what they want and therefore you have half the fan base rooting for losses to pile up in order to speed up the firing process before the hire has even coached his first game. It will continue until the fans get what they want. And I'm not talking Stevens or Donovan although they would obviously be great but won't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud2BAHoosier Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 13 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said: Regardless of how you feel, please don’t post anything on social media. Guys are really sensitive now and any criticism won’t go over well 🙄 This guy would take issue with you, I tend to agree.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC2345 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 My problem is that IU under Woodson looks poorly coached. Last year on offense especially. This year he made staff changes and added more talent and the team looks poorly coached on offense and defense. He’s also not a guy that does all out in recruiting as a HC either. The reality is he has to change how he’s doing things or else things aren’t going to get any better. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 16 minutes ago, Proud2BAHoosier said: This guy would take issue with you, I tend to agree.... Spot on!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 38 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Before the season, if I asked the board to pick 1 of the following at each position, the results would have been extremely one-sided. Preseason, the edge would have been 4-0-1 with the tie being Kopp v Morton TJD v Edey Race v Gilles/Furst Kopp v Morton JHS v Loyer XJ v Smith Now, even before the injuries, the right side was outperforming the left. Fast forward to the injuries. Replace Race with JG/MR Replace XJ with Galloway/Bates But, for the sake of the point, assume the injuries happened BEFORE the season. Preseason, we may have called JG/MR v Gilles/Furst a tie or slightly favor Purdue. Preseason, we still would have taken Galloway/Bates over Smith. The point is we, as fans, set expectations based on 'parts' that are determined by ranking and star rating. We, IU fans, have the UK mentality that if we have a starting lineup made up of Top 30 players, we would be unbeatable. Guess what, games are won by a TEAM, not the sum of individual parts. Who is responsible for getting the TEAM to mesh together? The coaches. I'm not singling out Woodson, because no head coach can do it on his own. I am, however, holding the coaching staff responsible for having the talent we supposedly have and playing like the worst team in the league. Why is Purdue better without Ivey? The same reason IU is struggling right now. Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: But we've lost 2 of these games by a total of 3 points without or 2nd and 3rd best players. That statement is spinning it quite a bit..... 1st game - gave up a 21 point lead 2nd game - was never close. We were down like 10 with 2 minutes left. We just luckily threw in two hail mary 3's and a half court shot in the last 30 seconds. We had no realistic chance of winning that game. But again, practically all the criticism is not pointed at the losses. It's how we lost. Coaching (lack of) lost Iowa and NW. Admittedly, I'm not sure there was anything we could do to beat PSU on that night. That said, if we continued to play like we did in the first 5 minutes and still lost, I would've been fine. There's playing good defense, playing average defense, playing below average defense, and playing dreadful defense that has no place in D1 basketball no matter how many injuries you have. Our defense in the last 3 games has been dreadful. There's no excuse for it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: That statement is spinning it quite a bit..... 1st game - gave up a 21 point lead 2nd game - was never close. We were down like 10 with 2 minutes left. We just luckily threw in two hail mary 3's and a half court shot in the last 30 seconds. We had no realistic chance of winning that game. But again, practically all the criticism is not pointed at the losses. It's how we lost. Coaching (lack of) lost Iowa and NW. Admittedly, I'm not sure there was anything we could do to beat PSU on that night. That said, if we continued to play like we did in the first 5 minutes and still lost, I would've been fine. There's playing good defense, playing average defense, playing below average defense, and playing dreadful defense that has no place in D1 basketball no matter how many injuries you have. Our defense in the last 3 games has been dreadful. There's no excuse for it. No spinning whatsoever... The qualifier is who we didn't have on the floor... And saying coaching is at the crux of our issue implies to me that you know more about the job than a guy who's done it at the highest levels... That's not just a shot at you, BTW...Overlooking the fact we're missing 2 pretty good players through injury and then foisting it all on coaching doesn't stand up in my book from anybody... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BGleas Posted January 12, 2023 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, kyhoosier29 said: I think it’s more about being disappointed in Woody’s perceived inability to make adjustments or change anything over the last 2.5 games. I’m disappointed in him, but I’m like “whatever” at this point. Don’t know what I want or what I think is the best idea. Befuddled that PSU is a 3 point shooting team and we gave them open look after open look last night (that’s not a talent problem). And it didn’t change from half to half. That to me is elementary, so was it even addressed or addressed but not executed by the whole team? My response is more “wtf is going on” in a tone of amazement, not anger. Agree completely. The injuries matter, they have definitely had a major negative impact on the season. If healthy, I think IU would absolutely still be a top 15 to potentially top 10 team. I'm just disappointed that we've seen very little adjustments from the coaching staff to better support the guys that are still healthy. We basically just changed the lineup but are playing the same. What are we doing to get guys like Kopp and Bates more involved in the offense? What aren't we adjusting with more off ball screening with those guys to get them open shots and relieve some pressure from TJD and JHS? How come PSU can get Funk 2,047 wide open 3's yet we just have Kopp standing in the corner and Bates trying to go one-on-one when he does get an opportunity? Why are we still massively over helping when it's clearly killing the defense? We've blamed lack of focus on the players and not executing the game plan, but outside of JHS these are upperclassmen So again, the impact of the injuries is absolutely real and substantial. We mostly all get that. I've just seen very little from the staff to adjust to that reality and it's disappointing. 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iuthruandthru Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 hours ago, KoB2011 said: Beard will get a second chance and some point, and perhaps one second chance for what he did is okay. I’d still prefer it’s not here, at least at this point. Art Briles does not belong on a college campus. I’d be done with IU athletics if they chose to hire him. I don’t disagree on Briles but I used him as the extreme example. We need someone proven with not that much baggage but enough that IU is the best chance for them going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 So just looking... In his first 6 games, Trayce had 4 turnovers... In his last 7 games he has 23... Anyone have any insight to why that might be? And for the record, I'm with @Steubenhoosier that Trayce brings the ball up the floor too much... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: So just looking... In his first 6 games, Trayce had 4 turnovers... In his last 7 games he has 23... Anyone have any insight to why that might be? And for the record, I'm with @Steubenhoosier that Trayce brings the ball up the floor too much... The only thing I've been disappointed in him the last few games is bringing the ball up a bit much. Rebound, find JHS and get to the box. That's all I want. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parakeet Jones Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: So just looking... In his first 6 games, Trayce had 4 turnovers... In his last 7 games he has 23... Anyone have any insight to why that might be? And for the record, I'm with @Steubenhoosier that Trayce brings the ball up the floor too much... No proof here other than a feeling from watching the games, but it seems like he is trying that whole cross court pass over the top of the defense to a guy who is open in the corner a lot more recently. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: So just looking... In his first 6 games, Trayce had 4 turnovers... In his last 7 games he has 23... Anyone have any insight to why that might be? And for the record, I'm with @Steubenhoosier that Trayce brings the ball up the floor too much... My two cents is that he is not handling the post-up double well. He never really has. We really don't take any advantage when he gets double teamed. He's slow to read it and often reads it incorrectly. He's had several passing turnovers out of the double team recently. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 hours ago, KoB2011 said: I also think we are getting way ahead of our skis talking about replacements. Still a lot of season left (yikes) and regardless, nothing is happening this year. This is a whole different team with XJ and Race. They will be back sooner than later. If Coach is saying guys are doing stuff on their own, the bench is a good spot for them. We are losing anyway. I can see a whole new team next season, built through the portal. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted January 12, 2023 Report Share Posted January 12, 2023 16 minutes ago, IUFLA said: So just looking... In his first 6 games, Trayce had 4 turnovers... In his last 7 games he has 23... Anyone have any insight to why that might be? And for the record, I'm with @Steubenhoosier that Trayce brings the ball up the floor too much... Lazy passer, all left handed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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