Archie Support

[IU878176]

4 hours ago, madmax said:

To be fair, John Groce won 23 games, 20, 19, 15, and then 18 games. Essentially his trajectory was negative throughout his time at Illinois. Archie’s has at least far been the exact opposite. Archie may not be the next Izzo, but it’s silly to mention his name in the same sentence as Groce’s.

Huh?
Archie Miller Big Ten:

year 1 - 9-9 6th place 

year 2 - 8-12 9th place

year 3 - 9-11 10th place
The exact opposite???? In Groces last year he finished 8-10 and came in 10th in the conference which is sort of an Archie year. Hoping this is the year we turn it around somewhat. Defense has certainly improved over the years.

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

Huh?
Archie Miller Big Ten:

year 1 - 9-9 6th place 

year 2 - 8-12 9th place

year 3 - 9-11 10th place

16

19

20

[IowaHoosierFan]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

16

19

20

Cupcakes don't really count.  But i do see what you're saying

[IU878176]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

16

19

20

The Big Ten means a lot more to me than how many Florida Gulf Coasts we scheduled and beat. And my point is that I disagree with his premise that Archie has been the polar opposite of Groce because unfortunately, to this point, that has not been the case.

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Cupcakes don't really count.  But i do see what you're saying

We beat some very good teams as well. MSU 3 times, FSU, Marquette, UW

[go_iu_bb]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

We beat some very good teams as well. MSU 3 times, FSU, Marquette, UW

Offset by losses to bad teams.

[IU Scott]

Just now, go_iu_bb said:

Offset by losses to bad teams.

Just saying we have beaten more than just the cup cakes.

[IU878176]

I agree we have beaten more than cupcakes. I posted Archie’s record in response to this comment:

Archie’s has at least far been the exact opposite. Archie may not be the next Izzo, but it’s silly to mention his name in the same sentence as Groce’s.

In year three Archie was 9-11 in the BT and came in 10th.

In Groces last year he was 8-10 in the BT and came in 10th.

In future years I doubt anyone will look at those two results and say they are the “exact opposite”. The D has greatly improved, and I hope we have a good year, but at some point “the record is the record”.

[IU Scott]

Just now, IU878176 said:

I agree we have beaten more than cupcakes. I posted Archie’s record in response to this comment:

Archie’s has at least far been the exact opposite. Archie may not be the next Izzo, but it’s silly to mention his name in the same sentence as Groce’s.

In year three Archie was 9-11 in the BT and came in 10th.

In Groces last year he was 8-10 in the BT and came in 10th.

In future years I doubt anyone would look at those two results and say they are the “exact opposite”. The D has improved, and I hope we have a good year, but at some point “the record is the record”.

He was saying that over all wins has increased every year where Groce had not not.

[IU878176]

Just now, IU Scott said:

He was saying that over all wins has increased every year where Groce had not not.

I disagree that was the intent of his post but will end this by saying everything is great, it’s amazing where we are after only three+ years and, most importantly, have a Merry Christmas. Enjoying the holidays is more important than the other stuff.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, IU878176 said:

I disagree that was the intent of his post but will end this by saying everything is great, it’s amazing where we are after only three+ years and, most importantly, have a Merry Christmas. Enjoying the holidays is more important than the other stuff.

I have not seen one person saying everything is great

[HoosierDom]

4 hours ago, IU878176 said:

I agree we have beaten more than cupcakes. I posted Archie’s record in response to this comment:

Archie’s has at least far been the exact opposite. Archie may not be the next Izzo, but it’s silly to mention his name in the same sentence as Groce’s.

In year three Archie was 9-11 in the BT and came in 10th.

In Groces last year he was 8-10 in the BT and came in 10th.

In future years I doubt anyone will look at those two results and say they are the “exact opposite”. The D has greatly improved, and I hope we have a good year, but at some point “the record is the record”.

According to KenPom, we were 71st Archie's first year, 52nd his second, 34th last year and 21st right now. 

Illinois was 39th in Groce's first year, 53rd his second, 61st his 3rd, 125 his 4th and he climbed back to 66th his last (after a good run in the NIT). 

Close enough to opposites for my book.

[NCHoosier32]

this whole thread confuses me.  when i saw Archie Support, i thought the point would be for all of the Archie supporters to explain what they like about him, the positive they see, etc.  i am fairly neutral on CAM at this point and becoming somewhat infamous for my negativity, but my thought is that we basically criticize CAM on every thread and this is a special thread to do the same thing?

[IUFLA]

12 hours ago, Indykev said:

You are happy with recruiting? Do you think this team can win the Big Ten?

I'm not as pessimistic as some are about recruiting. We've got our top priority 3 years in a row, but missed for 21 (not considering the Lander argument).

We did miss out on Brooks (who was thought to be OAD), Garcia (who is also a possible OAD), Miller, Kaufman, (both of which are probably at least 3 year guys), and Muhammed (who I'm actually glad we whiffed on...he'll be OAD with a snowball's chance in the NBA with that outside shot). And then we got Duncomb, another solid 3-4 year guy.

So I think by the time the current freshman class are juniors (probably minus Lander) if we get a couple of 50-80 ranked guys we'll be in good shape.

The problem with recruiting now days are the OAD kids and the EZ Bake transfer market. Makes roster management very volatile. 

I think our class of Lander, Leal, Galloway, and Geronimo was a good class and very needed for the 3-4 year players it produces to fulfill the "get old" promise.

As for winning the B1G this year, it's a long shot. BUT if TJD would decide to come back next year, and I don't think it's a given he's going, then I'd think we'll be a lot of people's pick to win it next year and do well in the tourney.

Sorry for being so verbose toward your questions, but it is the day after Christmas, game day, and it's cold here in Houston...I'm feeling frisky 😁

[rico]

1 hour ago, NCHoosier32 said:

this whole thread confuses me.  when i saw Archie Support, i thought the point would be for all of the Archie supporters to explain what they like about him, the positive they see, etc.  i am fairly neutral on CAM at this point and becoming somewhat infamous for my negativity, but my thought is that we basically criticize CAM on every thread and this is a special thread to do the same thing?

I think the OP's original message was for supporting Archie.  Then all us "negative nancys" joined in.

[IUDan93]

We are not going to be where we all hoped we would be this year when CAM was hired. I think we have a program moving slowly in the right direction. Defense and toughness is improved, though we are not so tough finishing at the rim.  CAM needs to be given time. Consistency is vital, unless it is clear that we are heading in the wrong direction. I felt this way about Crean, Sampson, and Davis.  Archie has us pointed in the right direction. Nobody is coming to IU and getting us to the top of the Big Ten in a year or two, nobody.  Let's just say that there is a chance that we get lucky with a Tom Allen type hire....great, but I bet on CAM. We have a guy who can get us to a better place. Shame on us if we run him off in the thought that the next shiny new object will be the answer to our prayers.  Program building is hard work, and really never follows a straight and true positive sloped line of progress.  I am more optimistic about things with Archie in charge, but don't confuse this with me guaranteeing that we will soon be back to blue-blood status.  We may never be that again.

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, NCHoosier32 said:

this whole thread confuses me.  when i saw Archie Support, i thought the point would be for all of the Archie supporters to explain what they like about him, the positive they see, etc.  i am fairly neutral on CAM at this point and becoming somewhat infamous for my negativity, but my thought is that we basically criticize CAM on every thread and this is a special thread to do the same thing?

To be honest I find some of the banter hilarious (not your particular post @NCHoosier32)

The vast majority of people on this forum want a second coming of Bob Knight...

Someone stubborn...

Someone who emphasizes defense...

Someone who makes kids play "the right way."

Someone who doesn't just pay academics lip service...

Someone with that smoldering desire to win...even if it means an occasional tantrum...

Not saying CAM is near the basketball mind RMK was (not many of those around) but he does check all of those boxes...Hell I feel like Bob Knight would have a hard time emulating himself in today's game/society.

[NCHoosier32]

40 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

To be honest I find some of the banter hilarious (not your particular post @NCHoosier32)

The vast majority of people on this forum want a second coming of Bob Knight...

Someone stubborn...

Someone who emphasizes defense...

Someone who makes kids play "the right way."

Someone who doesn't just pay academics lip service...

Someone with that smoldering desire to win...even if it means an occasional tantrum...

Not saying CAM is near the basketball mind RMK was (not many of those around) but he does check all of those boxes...Hell I feel like Bob Knight would have a hard time emulating himself in today's game/society.

100%.  i'm the biggest Knight supporter you know, but no way he'd be successful in this bball society.  no one good would come to play for him and if they did, they'd transfer.  he'd also be fired within a week.

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

I'm not as pessimistic as some are about recruiting. We've got our top priority 3 years in a row, but missed for 21 (not considering the Lander argument).

We did miss out on Brooks (who was thought to be OAD), Garcia (who is also a possible OAD), Miller, Kaufman, (both of which are probably at least 3 year guys), and Muhammed (who I'm actually glad we whiffed on...he'll be OAD with a snowball's chance in the NBA with that outside shot). And then we got Duncomb, another solid 3-4 year guy.

So I think by the time the current freshman class are juniors (probably minus Lander) if we get a couple of 50-80 ranked guys we'll be in good shape.

The problem with recruiting now days are the OAD kids and the EZ Bake transfer market. Makes roster management very volatile. 

I think our class of Lander, Leal, Galloway, and Geronimo was a good class and very needed for the 3-4 year players it produces to fulfill the "get old" promise.

As for winning the B1G this year, it's a long shot. BUT if TJD would decide to come back next year, and I don't think it's a given he's going, then I'd think we'll be a lot of people's pick to win it next year and do well in the tourney.

Sorry for being so verbose toward your questions, but it is the day after Christmas, game day, and it's cold here in Houston...I'm feeling frisky 😁

Don't forget Parker Stewart. I have to think we will see one more addition for next year before its over.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

15 hours ago, IU Scott said:

He came from Butler which isn't a major program

I know, mid major.....

[BobSaccamanno]

4 hours ago, IUFLA said:

To be honest I find some of the banter hilarious (not your particular post @NCHoosier32)

The vast majority of people on this forum want a second coming of Bob Knight...

Someone stubborn...

Someone who emphasizes defense...

Someone who makes kids play "the right way."

Someone who doesn't just pay academics lip service...

Someone with that smoldering desire to win...even if it means an occasional tantrum...

Not saying CAM is near the basketball mind RMK was (not many of those around) but he does check all of those boxes...Hell I feel like Bob Knight would have a hard time emulating himself in today's game/society.

This is a great post.  I think you nailed it.  With Crean, he had some pluses, but overall I thought it was a square peg in a round hole at Indiana because of the lack of emphasis on defense, the turnovers, and the poor approach to half court offense (not to mention that he lost the state in recruiting).

I think you’re 100% right that Archie satisfies the  deficiencies of Crean.  Strong defense, take care of the basketball, and, at least this year, good ball movement on offense.  

Archie may be held captive by a couple of starting guards who aren’t cutting it in their roles.  That might be the largest problem here.  

Maybe when Lander gets ready, and we land the likes of Avery Brown and CJ Gunn, all of a sudden the script flips and we do start winning consistently. Once you get the snowball rolling downhill, it accelerates.  We might see that.  All of a sudden our YoY win totals go parabolic and resemble a hockey stick.  How I hope that’s what happens.  

If I have a doubt to push back on, while his points of emphasis are good, I don’t see those sparks of ingenuity where Archie pushes the right buttons, either in a particular game plan or getting a player to respond.  As a result, once we start losing, Archie hasn’t been a solution guy in terms of fixing it. 

You and I are old enough to see Coach Knight tinker until he figured it out.  The 1989 team got blown out by Syracuse and UNC and had an incredible Big Ten season.  You could go on and on with examples.  

You are right that Knight isn’t walking through that door.  But there are still good coaches who can tinker and find solutions to problems.  I haven’t seen that enough out of Archie even if we will never see Knight again. Archie has that 12 losses out of 13 games thing with two NBA players.  There wasn’t that spark there that tells you Archie has it.  

I have been abundantly clear that I want Archie to have an excellent outcome.  I think it’s because I like the approach.  But in the end, it’s not what you or I say or think, it’s going to be his record, not us, not abstruse stats, and not what Kenpom or Sagarin say.  

[IUFLA]

3 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

This is a great post.  I think you nailed it.  With Crean, he had some pluses, but overall I thought it was a square peg in a round hole at Indiana because of the lack of emphasis on defense, the turnovers, and the poor approach to half court offense (not to mention that he lost the state in recruiting).

I think you’re 100% right that Archie satisfies the  deficiencies of Crean.  Strong defense, take care of the basketball, and, at least this year, good ball movement on offense.  

Archie may be held captive by a couple of starting guards who aren’t cutting it in their roles.  That might be the largest problem here.  

Maybe when Lander gets ready, and we land the likes of Avery Brown and CJ Gunn, all of a sudden the script flips and we do start winning consistently. Once you get the snowball rolling downhill, it accelerates.  We might see that.  All of a sudden our YoY win totals go parabolic and resemble a hockey stick.  How I hope that’s what happens.  

If I have a doubt to push back on, while his points of emphasis are good, I don’t see those sparks of ingenuity where Archie pushes the right buttons, either in a particular game plan or getting a player to respond.  As a result, once we start losing, Archie hasn’t been a solution guy in terms of fixing it. 

You and I are old enough to see Coach Knight tinker until he figured it out.  The 1989 team got blown out by Syracuse and UNC and had an incredible Big Ten season.  You could go on and on with examples.  

You are right that Knight isn’t walking through that door.  But there are still good coaches who can tinker and find solutions to problems.  I haven’t seen that enough out of Archie even if we will never see Knight again. Archie has that 12 losses out of 13 games thing with two NBA players.  There wasn’t that spark there that tells you Archie has it.  

I have been abundantly clear that I want Archie to have an excellent outcome.  I think it’s because I like the approach.  But in the end, it’s not what you or I say or think, it’s going to be his record, not us, not abstruse stats, and not what Kenpom or Sagarin say.  

I agree...the only thing Archie isn't using to his advantage that RMK did is the bench...he's given Al and Rob due time to get it going, and they haven't...he mentioned in the Northwestern post game changes may be coming...we shall see...

[TheWatShot]

5 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I'm not as pessimistic as some are about recruiting. We've got our top priority 3 years in a row, but missed for 21 (not considering the Lander argument).

We did miss out on Brooks (who was thought to be OAD), Garcia (who is also a possible OAD), Miller, Kaufman, (both of which are probably at least 3 year guys), and Muhammed (who I'm actually glad we whiffed on...he'll be OAD with a snowball's chance in the NBA with that outside shot). And then we got Duncomb, another solid 3-4 year guy.

So I think by the time the current freshman class are juniors (probably minus Lander) if we get a couple of 50-80 ranked guys we'll be in good shape.

The problem with recruiting now days are the OAD kids and the EZ Bake transfer market. Makes roster management very volatile. 

I think our class of Lander, Leal, Galloway, and Geronimo was a good class and very needed for the 3-4 year players it produces to fulfill the "get old" promise.

As for winning the B1G this year, it's a long shot. BUT if TJD would decide to come back next year, and I don't think it's a given he's going, then I'd think we'll be a lot of people's pick to win it next year and do well in the tourney.

Sorry for being so verbose toward your questions, but it is the day after Christmas, game day, and it's cold here in Houston...I'm feeling frisky 😁

Just curious: why do you say "probably minus Lander"? 

[IUFLA]

1 minute ago, TheWatShot said:

Just curious: why do you say "probably minus Lander"? 

Because I think it's a strong possibility that Kristian will be gone by then...

[TheWatShot]

Well, hopefully he starts playing more than 5 minutes per game then. I'd hate to see him leave.